Dear brethren,
I wanted to inform you that relatively soon, that is, within a few weeks, we are planning to offer a first year Hebrew class at Mukwonago Baptist Church/Mukwonago Baptist Bible Institute. It is probably going to be either three or four hours a session every second Saturday. By only having class every second Saturday, a person still has half of his Saturdays left to do other things (and, of course, the rest of the day on the Saturdays that there is class). Furthermore, I believe that having class at that frequency will prevent students from becoming overwhelmed, as we are not out to dumb down the language, but to make it so that one finishes the class will have a strong grasp of first-year Hebrew. People will be able to take the class via the Internet, and it will even be possible to take the course and watch the lectures later if one is tied up on Saturday and must view them at another time. Furthermore, the class will respect the biblical truth of the perfect preservation of Scripture, rather than seeking to undermine that biblical doctrine, as language courses taught by those who reject perfect preservation often do. I believe that the course should be accepted for credit if you wish to transfer it to somewhere else. Learning Hebrew is a noble endeavor for any Christian, and especially for those in ministry. After all, God wrote 75% of his word in Hebrew. If you would like more information, please contact:
Mukwonago Baptist Church
1610 Honeywell Rd.
Mukwonago, WI 53149
262-363-4197
mukwonagobaptist.org
The course outline for the last time I taught Hebrew is here. While the format will be different this time, as last time I taught it I did it in two nine-week blocks, the content should be just about the same.
Questions:
You said it was a "notable endeavour" to learn Hebrew because it certainly does not help you to understand the inspired scripture of the Holy King James Bible, for you do not need to learn any additional language since you already have absolute truth.
Therefore,
1> Is it true because you want to be a missionary to the Jew?
2> Is it true because it is good to know other languages, therefore learning German or any other language helps you in some way?
3> Is it true because you can see how inspired biblical texts of other languages helps you to see how the God of languages is able to inspire many common languages biblical texts of the people, using the body of Christ to confirm it as inspired text?
4> Or, is it true because once you have been exposed to it, it will be an EXCUSE to undermine the faithful inspired scripture such as the Holy King James Bible?
Dear George,
As I said before, since you deny the Trinity and favor modalism by
affirming that Jesus is God the Father in a body, rather than being
the eternal Son manifest in the flesh, I don't care if you are a
Ruckmanite. If you repent of your idolatry and embrace the Trinity,
then perhaps we can get into why Ruckmanism is a heresy. Since
Ruckmanites can be saved, but people who deny the Trinity are not
saved (Jn 17:3; 1 Jn 5:7, 20-21), there is no point in dealing, again,
with your Ruckmanism while you continue to reject the Trinity.
Please answer the questions I asked you here:
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2013/10/lets-be-very-clear-not-all-king-james.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2013/09/answering-david-cloud-on-church-pt-2.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-anabaptists-did-not-get-trinity.html
I am still waiting for the verses where Jesus says that He is God the
Father, or if there are none, for your repentance over confessing this
damnable heresy.
May the eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit lead you to know Him.
Can you not simply stay in context of your own thread?
I know I am saved, for if I am not then the Lord God is a liar, therefore we know that is not true, therefore YOU are the liar.
George, the Lord Jesus is the One who said–many, many times in the King James Bible–that He is the Son, not the Father. The Lord Jesus is the One who said eternal life is knowing the true God, Jn 17:3. The Holy Ghost said that those who deny that Jesus Christ–the Son, not the Father–is come in the flesh are antichrist, and denying the two Persons of the Father and the Son is antichrist, 1 Jn 2, 4. So when you say that Jesus is the Father in a body, not the etenal Son manifest in the flesh, who are you making a liar?
In quite a few posts now, George, you have slanderously called me many things when I have, out of love for your soul, pointed out that only those who know the true God have eternal life. However, you have never proven that Jesus is the Father–you have spent more time throwing insults at me than you have even attempted to prove that the classical doctrine of the Trinity is false. Even if I were all the vile things you have called me, Jesus would still not be the Father. Instead of attacking me personally, George, wouldn't it be better to be swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath, and receive with meekeness the Word, which is able to save your soul?
May the eternal Father, eternal Son, and eternal Holy Spirit, the one true God, show you mercy, despite your blasphemy against Him.
Why not answer the questions I posed instead of bloviating off topic toward a man that knows the Lord and "the fellowship of his suffering"?
Pardon the typos in my comment above.
George Calvas,
Any person who thinks that Jesus Christ is God the Father does not really know who the Lord Jesus Christ is. He is not God the Father. He is God the Son.
Also, saying things like
George Calvas said…
Can you not simply stay in context of your own thread?
I know I am saved, for if I am not then the Lord God is a liar, therefore we know that is not true, therefore YOU are the liar.
It is rather childish. I exhort you as well to be swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath.
Paul
George,
There are many anti-Trinitarians who have suffered various things for their deity. Oneness Pentecostals have suffered for their modalistic god, JW's have suffered for their god, Catholics have suffered for their wafer god, etc. Having suffered certain things does not prove that Jesus is the Father.
Furthermore, to understand biblical truth takes the illumination of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is being blasphemed by, as in your belief system, making Him like the spirit of a dead man, you cannot expect illumination on such issues as Bible preservation. Thus, there is no point discussing Ruckmanism with you as long as you believe that Jesus is the Father in a body.
Besides, you are even more extreme than Peter Ruckman. You have actually called the holy words Moses and the prophets wrote down in Hebrew "vile" instead of fearing and trembling before them. Such a wicked position does not lead me to wish to discuss your view, but to call you to repentance, weeping, and broken humility.
Thus, I do not call on you for a discussion. I call you to repentance.
What I call vile is your exaltation of Hebrew above English. That is VILE.
A wicked position?? Spare me, young man with all your foolish jesting.
I will let the Lord Jesus Christ correct you when you ask him, "Where is the Father"?.
I on the other hand will look at him and call him FATHER, believing the scriptures (John 14:9 cf Isaiah 9:6) knowing the Godhead is something greater than you and I can comprehend.
Therefore, I need to repent of nothing, but it is your continuous bloviating as one that "beateth the air" that needs to stop. You are "vainly puffed up by your fleshly mind" intruding into those things that you and I have never seen.
To Paul…
If you trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour in "repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ", knowing that his blood cleanseth you from ALL SIN, then you are saved. Tying that to the deep things of God (the Godhead) as your basis for salvation, is ANTOHER GOSPEL.
Therefore, if you have nothing construtive to say toward the subject matter at hand, please mind your own business, for "I KNOW whom I have believed in and am PERSUADED that HE (the Lord Jesus Christ) is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day (2 Timothy 1:12)".
Dear George,
You actually called the Hebrew Bible itself "vile" before. I called
you to repent of it, and you refused to do so. If you have changed
your mind on that, I'm glad to hear it.
George, when you say that Jesus Christ is the Person of God the
Father, you are rejecting the Scriptures and the God of Scripture. You
don't believe in the King James Bible when you reject the Trinity like
this. The fact that Is 9:6 speaks of Christ's fatherly relationship to
His people and John 14:9 proves nothing about the Son being the Father
has been explained to you a number of times. If you want a detailed
explanation again, see here:
http://faithsaves.net/jesus-doctrine-god-examined-jesus-christ-father-son-holy-spirit/
George, Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, not the Person of the
Father. If you like attacking me, I don't really care; God knows it is
false, and the silly accusations makes you look bad, not me. If you
wish to be a Ruckmanite, you are holding to something clearly
unbiblical and false, but there are people in heaven who believed in
Ruckmanism while on earth. However, if you continue to reject the
Trinity by teaching that Jesus Christ is the Person of the Father and
the Holy Spirit is like the spirit of a dead man, you will be
eternally damned. Your doctrine that the Son is the Father is vile
blasphemy and idolatry. That Jesus Christ is the eternal Son,
not the Person of the Father, is not some "deep thing" that is hard to
figure out. It is totally obvious in the Bible. You can say that believing
in the true God is "another gospel," but Jesus Christ disagrees, Jn 17:3.
You have been warned about your false deity now many times.
"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be
destroyed, and that without remedy" (Prov 29:1). This is not a joke or
a matter of words and names; it is eternity in heaven or eternity in
hell. George, I call on you to immediately repent and believe in the
eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the Bible. This may be your
last chance, for you will only repent if God will grant you repentance
(2 Tim 2:25) and God permits (Heb 6:3). If he gives you over to your
stubborn and sinful heart, you will be certain of eternal death even
while you yet live. Receive with meekness the engrafted Word which
is able to save your soul.
Hi Bro. Calvas,
I think you love The Lord and the Scriptures but I think you stumble at the word "scriptures". Please consider:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus (2 Tim. 3:15).
Paul tells Timothy that "thou hast known the holy scriptures" since he was a child. We know the holy scriptures weren't English because 2 Timothy was written in the first century. Paul was talking about the OT written in Hebrew. or maybe even some of the NT in Greek. Regardless, it was not English because this verse was written in the first century. Yes, we call our KJV the "scriptures" and they are. However, they are the "holy scriptures" translated into English. God inspired Hebrew and Greek words and promised to preserve them. We see that promise displayed as Timothy learns from 2000 year old preserved Hebrew words in the 1st century and we learn from 4000 year old preserved Hebrew words and 2000 year old preserved Greek words underlying the English KJV.
God inspired and preserves to this second all His Words (Hebrew and Greek). The KJV is a great English translation of all of his Holy Words.
Blessings,
Thanks John for at least trying to answer the question, though I disagree that the term scriptures is limited to time or language.
I submit that if you pick up any language bible which claims within its writings to be scripture, then one must prove that everything within its pages are truly the words of God. This can only be truly ascertained by a historical representation of the body of Christ that actually believe that these are the very words of God. Historical evidence of Hebrew and Greek texts prove very little, since the body of Christ has historically settled on an English text, even taken it throughout the world in the past 300-400 years (historical evidence) preaching and teaching its truths. Another piece of evidence to consider is that the worlds language is English and not Greek nor Hebrew.
Therefore, my assertions above are still valid. You do not need to learn Hebrew or Greek to understand the truths of the scriptures revealed to us by the Holy Ghost using a Holy King James Bible.
George,
You said 3 things that leads me to ask 3 questions.
1.The body of Christ historically settled on an English text.
Question: When did English first appear and what did the Lords churches do before then?
2. The worlds language is English not Greek nor Hebrew.
Question: What was the predominant language during the times of the Old and New testament?
3. You do not need to learn Hebrew or Greek to understand the truths of the scriptures…. using a Holy King James Bible.
Question: What did the King James translators actually translate?
Though I agree that one can glorify God by using the KJV (and many do), Hebrew and Greek are more precise and I can glorify God by learning His Word in its original languages.
Also, following question 1, when the scriptures were completed in the first century, if we were to follow your reasoning, then all the New Testament Churches until English arrived on scene did not have the perfect word of God. And neither did David or Moses or Solomon. That completely states God is a liar and does not keep His Word, in a Biblical sense and a promise sense.
Paul Brownfield
1.The body of Christ historically settled on an English text.
Question: When did English first appear and what did the Lords churches do before then?
Answer: Those are difficult questions to pin down, and I am sure others might have a different view, but a good start would be Wycliffe's old English bible, but in other areas of the world there could have been different texts (German, Polish, Galic, Greek and Hebrew??) that the body of Christ used. But we know that the Holy King James Bible had the greatest impact throughout the world after the 17th century. I am not a historian, and I only use that as a "secondary evidence" to prove points about any bible.
The bottom line is that the common faith of the body of Christ determines what is scripture and what is not. It is important that any text has a historical line, but since the Lord got rid of the original writings, he then was dependent upon his people, through the Spirit of God to determine what is and what is not scripture.
2. The worlds language is English not Greek nor Hebrew.
Question: What was the predominant language during the times of the Old and New testament?
Answer: Good question, but it is not important that I know the answer to that question to determine the scriptures of today. Just as God moved on with Israel to the church, he moved on with various text types throughout time dependent upon the Spirit of God and the body of Christ's needs.
3. You do not need to learn Hebrew or Greek to understand the truths of the scriptures…. using a Holy King James Bible.
Question: What did the King James translators actually translate?
Answer: They translated various Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, but also compared to other English and Latin translations (I have not studied this for years and have forgotten the details). What is important to note is that German, Polish, Spanish and French translations were produced during this time. What you know from this is the Lord God moved off anything that had to do with Greek and Hebrew into translations that were used to preach and teach the word of God. Simple history will tell you that the Spirit of God through the body of Christ is NOT using Greek and Hebrew ANYWHERE except in colleges to "confuse the minds of the simple". The Lord God settled those issues long ago and today you know that ENGLISH is the language that is common among nations due simply to the fact of the great missionary work of English missionaries using an Holy King James Bible to accomplish the work of God. You can also add to that the body of Christ of German, Spanish, French and Polish (others?) Christians that did the same, but nothing to the extent of the British and English missionaries. Therefore, God put away the Greek and Hebrew LONG AGO and its value can only be known in Israel and Greece which to my knowledge is nil to none. They have done nothing in the past 1000 years to preach and teach the words of God to anyone but there own nations, but that of itself has produced a Christianity that has absolutely little power in the world.
continued comments on Q3:
So, for example, if an English missionary with a Holy King James Bible went to a place in China where the gospel has never been preached (Galatians 6:4), and preached (assuming that he learned their language, but no bible existed in their language), preached the gospel and taught men so that they might be saved, started a church, he has the following decisions to make concerning the word of God:
1> Teach them the Holy King James Bible since what he did was to preach in their language by the AUTHORITY of the scriptures that the church he was ordained (Acts 13:1-5) sent him by the grace of God to "go into all the world and preach the gospel". He went by the power of the scriptures that saved him and ordained him, therefore he "translated verbally" THOSE scriptures that saved mens souls.
This is what I believe should be done, since this will tie the body of Christ in unity with those English believers under one common scriptures.
or
2> Based on the body of Christ in China and their desire to have the word of God, then the decision could be to translate a bible in their language, therefore the missionary would use THOSE scriptures (the English Holy King James Bible) by the AUTHORITY of God through the church to translate a copy of the scriptures in their native tongue. If their language was common to a large people group, this approach might be desirable.
At the end, there is NO need for any Greek or Hebrew knowledge. That is a red herring and has divided the body of Christ for many reasons, but pride and ignorance of the scriptural truths about "the scriptures" and the power of the authority vested within the the body of Christ (ie, Jesus Christ's presence) as his means of proving (Bereans- Acts 17) what is and is not scripture.
Therefore, once again, my assertions are valid concerning the Greek and Hebrew.
George,
I may seem like I'm asking pointless questions to you but for me to know the doctrine you hold to, I need to ask.
A person I know holds to the belief that the KJV is superior bar none. He believes that up to the time the KJV was written, there were no perfect texts of scripture. Is that what you hold to?
If so, how would you interpret Psalm 12:6-7 seeing how v.6 says the Words of the Lord ARE pure words. Also, in v.7, it says "thou shalt preserve them from THIS generation for ever."
My understanding from that passage is David had the perfect Words of God that was available to him in that Day. Of course he didn't have the complete Words because the N.T. wasn't written yet but what he had was and is perfect. V.7 shows me that God preserved His Words even from then. Then, it was written in Hebrew. Also notice the passage says "words" not "word". David is saying that every single Word is pure and God will preserve every single Word.
Seeing these things, I am inclined to believe that Gods Words in Psalms, being Hebrew at the time, was and is perfect.
So, if the Hebrew is not the perfect Word of God (and I can argue for the Greek as well but since the post is centered on Hebrew, I'll stick to that), how would you properly interpret this passage?
Thank you for your answers
Paul Brownfield
Paul,
"If so, how would you interpret Psalm 12:6-7 seeing how v.6 says the Words of the Lord ARE pure words. Also, in v.7, it says "thou shalt preserve them from THIS generation for ever."
1> It says ARE and not WERE and then you quoted a Holy King James Bible when asking the question. Tense is very important as well as from which text you quoted.
2> You did not quote a Hebrew bible. Therefore, are the words quoted in ENGLISH to prove any language text to be the words of God true?
3> If you did quote a Hebrew bible, HOW do you KNOW that these are the very words of God? You need consensus from the body of Christ to prove or disprove that truth. What you have today in America is a consensus (though small) of true bible believers that stand faithful to the Holy King James Bible believing EVERY WORD is infallible, inerrant and perfect. They prove that by being saved through those words and then preaching, teaching and living them out daily.
Please show me any born again believers that hold to that truth with the Hebrew text. Show me by evidence of the body of Christ standing in the streets or pulpits in America and actually preaching in Hebrew. Show me the body of Christ living faithfully in Jesus Christ using only a Hebrew or Greek (I will throw that in) text?
If that is not true, then your basis is nothing more than a red herring. The Hebrew and Greek mean ABSOULUTELY nothing. They are a stumbling block and have become idols because here in America they have no authority. It is just a bunch of intellectual bloviating that has done NOTHING to change ANYTHING in the world today!
That is not true for the Holy King James Bible.
My statements made in the beginning are still valid.
George,
I evidence you ask of is in the Bible. Psalm 12 was written by David in Hebrew. To say that Psalm 12:6-7 didn't exsist in Hebrew is saying that the Churches before KJV
A. Did not have the completed Word of God, and
B. Did not have the perfect Word of God.
Therefore, you make God to be a liar.
It does say "are" pure words and "this" generation in the Hebrew. Ask Thomas Ross or any other who can read Hebrew. If you deny that then you are unteachable. Scripture did not Magically appear for the first time in the KJV. It was written perfect by Moses, by David, by Solomon, by the prophets, by Matthew, by Paul, by Peter…. These men wrote scripture as they were moved by the Holy Ghost in the languages of their time. Many many times in the Old and New Testament you see the Author stating the Word of God is perfect. This is Pre-KJV.
The King James Translators translated from the original languages. The reason the KJV was written was to have an accurate English translation of the Holy Scriptures. You also said in a previous comment:
1> Teach them the Holy King James Bible since what he did was to preach in their language by the AUTHORITY of the scriptures that the church he was ordained (Acts 13:1-5) sent him by the grace of God to "go into all the world and preach the gospel". He went by the power of the scriptures that saved him and ordained him, therefore he "translated verbally" THOSE scriptures that saved mens souls.
First, God saves the souls of Men. However, He uses His Words to lead them and convict them to the point of repentence. Are you saying God did not use the Greek and Hebrew pre-KJV to do so? You are making the English seem like some Holy language but God did not use English to write His Holy Word. He used Hebrew and Greek. To insinuate that the Greek and Hebrew texts are not perfect makes God a liar.
This is why, George, your doctrine on the Trinity is a mess. You can't discern Scripture even when it relates to the Scriptures themselves.
I pray that you will come to an understanding of these things.
Paul Brownfield
Paul wrote"
1> "I evidence you ask of is in the Bible. Psalm 12 was written by David in Hebrew. To say that Psalm 12:6-7 didn't exist in Hebrew is saying that the Churches before KJV"
Who assumed that?? My point is that since you believe that in the English did not negate the Hebrew, but rather establishes the fact that it is also the English that has the same intrinsic authority apart from the "original languages".
2> "First, God saves the souls of Men. However, He uses His Words to lead them and convict them to the point of repentance. Are you saying God did not use the Greek and Hebrew pre-KJV to do so?"
I said nothing of the kind. Again, you assume to much. I said it was the English that was preached that lead them to Jesus Christ (assume in China), therefore it is the English that has the authority in that church and not the Hebrew.
3> "You are making the English seem like some Holy language but God did not use English to write His Holy Word. He used Hebrew and Greek."
Prove to me that the 39 OT books of the bible were original written in Hebrew, and that the 27NT books were originally written in Greek.
4> "This is why, George, your doctrine on the Trinity is a mess. You can't discern Scripture even when it relates to the Scriptures themselves."
My doctrine on the trinity is biblical and also I can easily discern scripture, since I believe that the Holy King James Bible is inspired holy writ for I "received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe (1 Thessalonians 2:16).
Paul,
Since I answered your questions, please answer some of mine.
1> Do you believe the scriptures? Please tell me where the words of God are found.
2> Provide proof of authority of that text over the body of Christ. By that, provide evidence that it is believed, preached and taught to the body of Christ in the church and preached openly in the streets of America, therefore having authority and power.
Those qualifications are true for the Holy King James Bible. I do not even have to provide any proof of the above, for the proof of that is self-evident for at least 350 YEARS!
The first class lectures will take place on Saturday, April 5 from 8 -11 am, Central Standard Time. It is possible to take the class without watching the lectures live. The cost for credit will be $150. The class can be audited for $75. The class lectures will be posted on the Internet and can be viewed online for free, but only those registered for the course will be able to ask questions, engage in classroom interaction, take tests, etc. Scholarships for those who are genuinely unable to afford it (e. g., some who wish to learn Hebrew in very impoverished countries in Africa) are available. To register for the course, contact Mukwonago Baptist Church. More information is also found here.
The web address for the page refuting modalism has changed (shortened) from what I mentioned in previous posts. It is now:
http://faithsaves.net/oneness-pentecostal/
instead of:
http://faithsaves.net/jesus-doctrine-god-examined-jesus-christ-father-son-holy-spirit/
and I hope George reads it and is quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath.