For some of you, when I write “Keswick” or “continuationst,” it doesn’t mean much to you. Some other related names are “Charismatic,” “second-blessing,” “revivalism,” “higher life,” “let-go-and-let-God,” “Christian perfectionism.” I could add a general philosophical term, like mysticism, because that fits too. Mysticism connects it with the Babylonian mystery religion found in Corinth and seen from the false teachers targeted by 1 and 2 Corinthians. Other concepts then relate to the ones I’ve already listed, such as “power evangelism” and “name it and claim it.” Each of these terms overlaps with each of the others, but each also have a nuance of difference.
“This stuff,” which is what I’m going to call the above stuff for this post, has spread all over Christianity to the point where it’s become in certain ways indistinguishable from it. People now just look at this stuff like it is normal for Christianity. It’s not considered unchristian anymore and even more christian than what is actually Christian. It’s everywhere, and if you point it out, you’re often seen as unloving. The feeling or the experience, some result that goes along with it, is seen as some kind of movement or power or baptism or filling or manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Whole books have been written on and against this stuff, but as I see it, it’s everywhere, even among those who say they dislike it. It’s that rampant.
One should not expect any of this stuff from those who call themselves or consider themselves reformed or Calvinist, but it’s not true. What or who is supposed to be the opposite of this stuff has itself or themselves appropriated it with and through its associations, music, techniques, methods, and strategies. What got my attention came from something I got in my email inbox that contained material from a very well known conservative evangelical, reformed or Calvinistic group, which sells the Puritan hard drive, called, Still Water Revival Books.
The Charismatic movement or continuationism says that sign gifts are for today, those being tongues, healings, and miracles. They have their “healings,” their fraudulent healings, that are not the signs of Jesus and the Apostles. They have their miracles, fantastic events that supposedly occur and maybe massive numbers of salvation, at least professions. All of these tell them that they’re of God and that the Holy Spirit is with them. Both Charismatics and non-Charismatics cannot both be right, and Charismatics are not right. You can see that in scripture. Still Water Revival Books referred to a sermon on prayer by Paul Washer, where he mentions George Mueller and J. Hudson Taylor, and they tell a story apparently about George Mueller.
So non-Charismatic, non-continuationists, the others, they don’t have the sign gifts. They don’t believe it. They don’t have healings and miracles. They don’t. But yet they do. They as good as have them, their own version of them. They do in numbers of different ways that I’ve been talking about here in several different posts over the last decade. People need to recognize it. They need to eschew this stuff, all forms of it, all of which is deceit. They are as much the “seeking after signs” that are as wicked as anything in any form of this stuff. They are “acceptable versions” of this stuff.
Jesus said that those who seek after this stuff are faithless. Faithlessness fuels it. It isn’t faith or more power, but a lack of security. This stuff provides a kind of authentication of Christianity to them, letting them know that what they have is real. The Bible is real. Christianity is real. God is real. Jesus is real. It’s all real. It’s not helped along by this stuff. The Bible is good enough. It is sufficient.
In the title of the post, I’ve mentioned prayer, because that was what the email was about that I got in my inbox. In the Charismatic movement, you have these “healers.” People being physically healed is a very powerful thought. You see it in the Bible. The Charismatics have their “healing.” It’s not as though the non-charismatics do not have theirs.
The non-Charismatics, supposedly non-continuationists even, have praying for the sick, praying for someone with a brain tumor, praying for someone in surgery, all of that. Theoretically in and with these prayers, like what is supposedly occurring in Charismatic healing, God is doing the healing. Like the Charismatic healers, these prayers, even though they are said to be God, they won’t result in someone getting a new leg who has lost his leg. I’m saying they are very similar to Charismatic healing and they fill church prayer lists, minus things like blindness either way. The idea here is that someone prays and someone is healed. It’s quite a coup, an amazing offer, to propose the possibility that someone might be healed as a result of a prayer today. It is very powerful to the one who anticipates a healing. I consider this too to be a church growth method. Everyone gets sick. That’s a big audience.
Healing is not all. You will also read what are reported as miracles of prayer. Here’s what I read from Still Water Revival Books:
Once, while crossing the Atlantic on the SS Sardinian in August 1877, his ship ran into thick fog. He explained to the captain that he needed to be in Quebec by the following afternoon, but Captain Joseph E Dutton (later known as “Holy Joe”) said that he was slowing the ship down for safety and Müller’s appointment would have to be missed. Müller asked to use the chartroom to pray for the lifting of the fog. The captain followed him down, claiming it would be a waste of time. After Müller prayed, the captain started to pray, but Müller stopped him; partly because of the captain’s unbelief, but mainly because he believed the prayer had already been answered. When the two men went back to the bridge, they found the fog had lifted. The captain became a Christian shortly afterwards. Müller’s faith in God strengthened day by day and he spent hours in daily prayer and Bible reading — indeed, it was his practice, in later years, to read through the entire Bible four times a year.
I would say to anyone, “Pray.” That’s not all there is to it, however. People need to look at what the Bible says about prayer. A lot of what people think about prayer, they didn’t get from the Bible. They read a story like above, and what are they supposed to think? It isn’t scripture. What do they think about Mueller? Mueller had special power. He could accomplish things no normal human, no normal Christian, could. He had a faith they don’t have, and a power they don’t have. He got the second blessing that they covet. He could get fog to lift right when he needed it. How far could he go? Could he he pray for the ship to move two or three times faster? Could the ship fly? Could Mueller fly? Jesus walked on water.
What is it that holds people back? They don’t believe. Don’t believe what? Do they not believe that God can lift fog? Or do they not believe that they should pray for fog to be lifted? Is not praying for fog to be lifted — is that faithless? Is fog lifting a basis of faith? Should we agree that we should pray the same or that we’re missing something if we don’t? Where is Mueller’s faith in England today? Why not?
I’m not saying that what I’m reporting about prayer is the worst of this stuff. What I was reading from Still Water Revival Books and even from Paul Washer in his sermon on prayer was this stuff. I am saying that it got my attention, because it reminded me that this type of thinking is everywhere in Christianity, including with the reformed and Calvinists.
I've often had similar thoughts about Mueller stories and how they are portrayed…
It is interesting to see hardcore Reformed folks thinking this way. I'm curious what you might think about how this applies to fundamentalism today. More specifically, Kent, I am curious what you would say about this article:
http://www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2016/03/prayer-meeting-dynamics-by-dr-rick.html
Do you think this article represents "this stuff"? Or do you think it is pretty solid on prayer?
Thanks,
Mat
Not sure how the Mueller story was used, but here is the full story.
Charles Inglis, the well-known evangelist, relates the following remarkable incident:
"When I first came to America thirty-one years ago, I crossed the Atlantic with the
captain of a steamer who was one of the most devoted men I ever knew; and when we
were off the banks of Newfoundland he said to me: 'Mr. Inglis, the last time' I crossed
here, five weeks ago, one of the most extraordinary things happened that has
completely revolutionized the whole of my Christian life. Up to that time I was one of
your ordinary Christians. We had a man of God on board, George Mueller, of Bristol. I
had been on that bridge for twenty-two hours and never left it. I was startled by
someone tapping me on the shoulder. It was George Mueller.
Captain,' said he, 'I have come to tell you that I must be in Quebec on Saturday
afternoon.' This was Wednesday.
It is impossible,' I said.
Very well, if your ship can't take me God will find some other means of locomotion to
take me.
I have never broken an engagement in fifty-seven years.'
I would willingly help you, but how can I? I am helpless.'
Let us go down to the chart room and pray,' he said.
Online Literature Answers to Prayer
Christ Bible Church http://www.christbiblechurch.org
5
"I looked at this man and I thought to myself, 'What lunatic asylum could the man have
come from? I never heard of such a thing.'
"'Mr. Mueller,' I said, 'do you know how dense this fog is?'
No,' he replied, 'my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who
controls every circumstance of my life.'
"He went down on his knees, and he prayed one of the most simple prayers. I thought
to myself, 'That would suit a children's class, where the children were not more than
eight or nine years of age.' The burden of his prayer was .something like this: '0 Lord,
if it is consistent with Thy will, please remove this fog in five minutes. You know the
engagement You made for me in Quebec for Saturday. I believe it is Your will.'
"When he had finished, I was going to pray, but he put his hand on my shoulder and
told me not to pray.
First,' he said, 'you do not believe God will do it; and, second, I believe He has done it.
And there is no need whatever for you to pray about it.'
I looked at him, and George Mueller said this: 'Captain, I have known my Lord for
fifty-seven years and there has never been a single day that I have failed to gain an
audience with the King. Get up, Captain and open the door, and you will find the fog is
gone.' I got up, and the fog was gone. On Saturday afternoon George Mueller was in
Quebec."
Paul
Mat,
Rick Flanders is Keswick. I didn't read through the article, but his article reads like I know they believe there in Menomonee Falls. It's a version of power evangelism. You pray through to get power and your evangelism success increases through the overwhelming power you have. It's something taught by revivalists, including Jack Hyles.
Hi Paul,
I was dealing with the teaching itself, not the accuracy of the report about Mueller's prayer. That is one of the problems though. If the authority for the prayer is a story, then is the story itself inspired like scripture? For that to be so, the story would need to be inerrant, and outside of scripture, that isn't occurring. On the other hand, if what you cut and pasted into the comment is the prayer he prayed, then the prayer would have been answered whether the fog lifted or not, because he prayed "if it is thy will." I could believe that God might do it or might not do it. That takes no faith. You would simply be praying for God's will to be done, which is the model prayer.
I've no idea why that prayer was used or in what sense it was being used as an example, but I've read that story before and have never thought that it was inappropriate.
The story even has Mueller saying if the ship is not up to the task another form of transportation will be found. Reading his story this seems to be his normal prayer always "if it is thy will".
If the idea being taught is that Mueller was special in some way or had some power, then I believe they miss the whole point of his life. He believed that God answers prayer and lived his life that way.
paul
Paul,
Where did Mueller get his revelation that another ship will be found? People have these expectations. Are they biblical expectations? Do they fit a biblical model. Praying for God's will isn't praying for something mysterious, but praying for something God actually said, what He promised. That's the basis of faith. It isn't faith to pray for something we have no assurance, so we add a tag-on — if you will it. You to pray for his will, what you know is his will, not what you hope is his will.
What's the difference between this and Charismatic sign gifts?
It didn't have to be another ship. He said if it is consistent with thy will, he believed that God had was in control of every circumstance of his life including the engagement in Quebec.
Here is an article about ascertaining the will of God.
How I Ascertain the Will of God?
By George Mueller
1. I SEEK AT THE BEGINNING to get my heart into such a state that it has no
will of its own in regard to a given matter. Nine-tenths of the trouble with people
is just here. Nine-tenths of the difficulties are overcome when our hearts
are ready to do the Lord's will, whatever it may be. When one is truly in this
state, it is usually but a little way to the knowledge of what His will is.
2. HAVING DONE THIS, I do not leave the result to feeling of simple impression.
If I do so, I make myself liable to great delusions.
3. I SEEK THE WILL of the Spirit of God through, or in connection with, the
Word of God. The Spirit and the Word must be combined. If I look to the
Spirit alone without the Word I lay myself open to great delusions also. If the
Holy Ghost guides us at all, He will do it according to the Scriptures and never
contrary to them.
4. NEXT I TAKE into account providential circumstances. These often plainly
indicate God's will in connection with His Word and Spirit.
5. I ASK GOD in prayer to reveal His will to me aright.
6. THUS, THROUGH PRAYER to God, the study of the Word, and reflection, I
come to deliberate judgment according to the best of my ability and knowledge,
and if my mind is thus at peace, and continues so after two or three more
petitions, I proceed accordingly.
In trivial matters, and in transactions involving most important issues, I have
found this method always effective.
I'm not seeing the error here is there one?
Paul
Paul,
First, I wasn't writing about what Mueller believed, but the story that the Still Water Revival Books gave.
Two, there are problems though with the outline of Mueller wrote it. It isn't scriptural in several ways. Example here: Praying that God would reveal His will? God has already revealed His will. It is the Bible. Praying for wisdom is one thing. Praying that God would reveal something is another.
Three, other aspects are ambiguous and due its short nature, difficult to impossible to know what he was thinking. Example here: "in connection with the Word of God." What is that?
Kent, you forgot the story about the truck hauling the load of carrots that broke down right out front of the Bible college. 🙂
I tend to agree with your concern over the impressions these stories make, especially some of the ways I've heard them presented.
But is there a better way to look at them and not just discard them. Some people do have "more" faith, no? ("Lord, increase our faith.")
And what if Mueller changed his #5 to "I ask God in prayer to give me wisdom and discernment." That would coincide with his next point, I think, even better than his current #5, and would be more Biblical.
I think we are trying to parse his words too much. I take the revealing His will to be about everyday decisions. It seems to me that Mueller uses "reveal His will" as praying for wisdom. In the story, it would refer to going to Quebec. Believing that God controlled every circumstance of his life he would pray for wisdom/will to ascertain if he was doing it out of selfish desires.
Connection with the word of God to Mueller would be applicable to starting the orphanage house. He took the Scriptures that speak of caring for the widows and orphans to heart and founded the orphanage.
If the idea is to hold Mueller up as some super disciple or special powers, then it misses the point. There was nothing special or magical about Mueller, he believed God and lived his life accordingly.
His words are not inerrant or inspired in anyway, I think for the most part we agree on the substance of your post. I just give him the benefit of the doubt that when he wants to ascertain the will of God he is referring to wisdom in everyday decisions.
Paul
D4,
People have a wrong understanding of faith. Everywhere in scripture, you see it is tied to scripture. What I read in Still Waters is you pray for things that scripture gives no guarantee, and you aren't really sure about it. Since you're not sure, you say, if God wills. I have faith in God's sovereign will. Everything that will occur is what He allows or causes, but the will of God in the fog moving for you so you can get somewhere? I talked to a Mormon man, who became Mormon, because he prayed that if God moved traffic, so he could get somewhere, that Mormonism was true. The traffic moved, and he turned Mormon. You may say, Mormonism is false, but he validated it with this experience. People validate Mueller and being able to have this power that he has with this experience. People then do not know how to pray. They are praying for things that God has not promised or taught that he would do. They are not satisfied with biblical prayers. This is related to Keswick, and then it is spread by people like Paul Washer and many, many others. A certain scriptural prayer phrase is quoted, the illustration is given, and people think the Bible is teaching that. It's bad preaching.
I'm guessing you agree with this. Do people have a gift of faith? Sure, but it is faith in what God said He would do. The faith is not itself power. He can make things happen because He's got this gift that people don't have. When you look at Hebrews 11, their faith was in things they could not see, just in the promises, regardless of something physical. It was all about eternity. It's bad to misconstrue the gift of faith and say that these stories about Mueller are defining faith. I think you agree with that, but this is important.
Paul,
Are you Paul Washer?
Regarding parsing his words, God revealing something to someone that is God's will and doing something like lifting fog are very much in line with the Keswick movement, Charismatic doctrine, etc. Part of continuationism is ongoing revelation, so I believe that would be clear to someone. Make a good decision according to God's Word and then wait on God.
If someone is doing what God said, He is doing what God willed. There is no will of your own, when you are doing what God said. Praying that God would help you not to do something just because you want to do it, not being self-willed, I think that's a fine prayer. I never pointed that out. However, if you tie that to everything else you read, it could be praying for something not in the Bible, not something God said He would do, but praying that God would help you to know if that thing not in scripture, not something He promised, was not something that you wanted to do.
Does James 1:27 apply to starting an orphanage? I believe it is a stretch. I believe the point of the text is doing something that is motivated from the inside, and the example is caring for widows and orphans in the church that in the context of James seem to have come from tribulation, persecution, which we know of the Jerusalem church. We know from 1 Timothy that churches have a responsibility to widows and their small orphans implied.
I'm not saying it is wrong to start an orphanage. England had a societal problem on its hands and Mueller stepped up to it with the concept of the orphanage. How about the idea of churches everywhere adopting children and raising them in a family? That fits a biblical institution and it keeps it in the church. In the United States, it is foster care unfortunately, not adoption. Starting an orphanage is a stretch for "visiting orphans," and wisdom would be considering the right application of scripture. But this is an aside to the point of the blog post. Mueller refers very little to scripture, and I see none in your cut and paste. I've got to take everything he says through a grid of scripture to attempt to understand what to make of it.
I believe that the doctrine, that comes from the stories of the example of Mueller and those stories like those ones from others of that era or later, needs to be judged by scripture. The healing and the miraculous events prayed for are parallel to or even identical to Charismatic sign events. They are viewed almost identical. Does that come from scripture? Is that the right interpretation and application of scripture? Knowing and living scripture is faith.
Thanks, Paul.
I'm not Paul Washer, don't even know who he is and I've not heard of Still Water, but I did read Mueller book. I guess I just don't see the error. I don't think he started an orphanage because of James 1:27, the thrust of it was to care for them and teach them about God. If I recall correctly, he wanted to show the world that God still provides and is faithful to His word.
Reading his life he frequently refers to scripture, but again I've no idea how Washer or Still Water used stories of his life.
I take his prayers about decisions that come up every day as fine. Should I buy a new car or used? Should I take job A or B? Should I accept a speaking arrangement? Decisions that we make every single day that are not in the bible, but we should still pray about them right?
Let me ask a question, when we are told that Abraham believed that God will raise Isaac from the dead even though nothing was in the bible about that yet. Would that make him Charismatic? That didn't come from scripture.
Paul
Paul, Abraham had the word of God on Isaac, that is why he knew Isaac would be fine.
Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (18) Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: (19) Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
God had promised Isaac would be the one, so Abraham did not need to know how that would take place. He did have "Bible" (the word of God) that Isaac would survive to procreate. He believed it.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; (3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
How many times does someone say the Lord is leading them to do something, but that something is contrary to the word of God? They pray some specific prayer and it is answered very specifically, therefore God is in it, even though it is plainly against scripture.
Kent,
It seems to me that there is very little scriptural backing to what you are saying or perhaps you just overlooked the following verses. I am all against the Charismatic idea of praying but certainly there is place for Christians to pray big prayers and expect God to do big things. Do you not think that it pleases God when we ask Him to do things that only God can do? Similar to how a father delights to give good things to his children simply because he is their Dad and loves them? There is a great relationship between Christians and there Heavenly Father, "wherefore we cry, Abba Fathher."
Consider the following passages:
– Gen. 24:10-20 Abraham's servant prayed some very specific prayers regarding finding the right wife for Isaac, and God heard him and answered him.
– Gen. 32:24-30; 33:1-4 Jacob prayed and God worked that he and his brother would meet in peace.
– Judges 15:18-20 Samson in thirst asked God for water and He provided water out of a bone. (That seems more crazy than someone praying for fog to lift.)
– II Samuel 15:31; 16:20-23; 17:14-23 David prayed that God would defeat the counsel of Ahithophel and He did.
– Daniel 2:16-23 Daniel prayed and God enabled him to tell Nebuchanezzar's dream and then interpret it.
– Nehemiah 1:11, 2:1-6 Nehemiah prayed and in response God answered and persuaded the King of Persia to allow him to visit and rebuild Jerusalem.
– Ester 4:15-17; 6:7-8 Ester and Mordecai prayed and God defeated Haman's plan and spared the Jews.
– Acts 12:1-12 Jerusalem believers prayed for God to open the prison and Peter free. God delivered. (Sounds miraculous almost like fog lifting.)
– II Cor 12:7-10 Paul prayed that the thorn in his flesh would be taken away. If his thorn was a physical ailment, which many say it was, then surely we could pray for that too.
– The Psalmist on numerous occasions prayed and God heard and delivered. Ps. 3:4; 4:1; 6:8; 18:6; 28:6; 34:4; 118:5 In one instance he claimed the Lord "healed" him. Ps. 32:2
Also consider these great verses on Prayer
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do…
Matthew 21:21-22 Jesus answered and said…And all things whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:22-24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
I John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence…that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us…we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Matt 7:8-9 For everyone that asketh recieveth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
I realise there are other conditions like not "regarding iniquity," or not praying according to our own lusts, and other reasons that are involved in prayer. But based on these promises, and Biblical examples, why can't a Christian who is "abiding" in him and His words are "abiding" in him, not expect God to answer his prayers? Isn't the whole point of the father child relationship that he enjoys helping? My heart has been encouraged to pray big prayers based on these promises and Biblical examples and not be limited by intellectualism that takes away the plain common sense of the meaning. Our Baptist churches are dead today because we have made prayer such an intellectual thing rather than a relationship with God. It's normal for Christians to be seeing miraculous answers to prayer on a regular basis. I think our churches that are spiritually bankrupt need to try something different because what is happening now certainly is not pleasing to God. It's time we pray big prayers so our big God can be seen by this old God hating world.
Hi ANONYMOUS,
I await your name before I comment. You're saying that what I'm saying isn't scriptural though. You can pull verses out of context to say that we should pray for someone to raise from the dead, and they should raise from the dead, if you have faith.
I agree somewhat with anonymous. It does seem rather cold and intellectual prayer that you seem to be advocating. There is no room for asking for anything and yet scripture records people doing just that.
One that comes to mind is Hannah praying for a son, would she be an early Charismatic?
I can see how some of these stories can get abused and wrong conclusions drawn, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for things we don't know. What is wrong with uncertainty? I like what Jehoshaphat said at the end of his prayer for deliverance when he said "…neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee."
Paul
Kent,
I guess I'm not sure how you are distinguishing Charismatics and non-Charismatics if you claim they practice the same things. What category would George Mueller fall into based on the story of the fog lifting?
John
Hi,
I've noticed the big critique coming from Charismatics and revivalists through the years, when you sing psalms, no 1-2-3 pray-with-me, no typical emotionalism and mysticism with preaching, really just satisfaction with God and His Word, is that it cold and intellectual and unloving. I would say the opposite is mystical and sentimental. Ultimately, the question is, is it biblical?
I'd be fine debating anyone on it, but in the end, much of it will come down to the same arguments as someone has against continuationism and Charismaticism. I see the arguments as very similar or the same. I've written some on it here.
Here are some posts to get someone started at least up to a certain point.
https://jackhammer.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/what-is-the-new-testament-basis-for-praying-for-the-sick/
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/06/prayer-does-bible-teach-not-knowing.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/search?q=normativeness
http://www.kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-definition-of-faith-or-belief-and.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-definition-of-faith-or-belief-and_13.html
http://www.kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-on-prayer.html
http://www.kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-about-prayer-ii.html
http://www.kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-about-prayer-iii.html
http://www.kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-on-prayer-iv.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-about-prayer-v.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/08/more-about-prayer-vi.html
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2014/09/more-about-prayer-vii.html
That will get some of you started.
I will regurgitate here a comment I made on another post about this subject, and again I heartily recommend John Bunyan's book on prayer:
"John Bunyan's book on prayer was one of the most helpful to me. He defined prayer as, 'a sincere, sensible, affectionate pouring out of the heart or soul to God, through Christ, in the strength and assistance of the Holy Spirit, for such things as God hath promised, or according to the Word, for the good of the church, with submission, in faith, to the will of God.'
I had never heard that before,i.e., that real prayer is praying for what God has promised. It completely changed how I viewed prayer and how I prayed. I had always thought we should ask for whatever we want, and as long as it isn't sinful, then we are to expect the 'yes, no, or wait' answer from God. I totally misunderstood verses like John 15:7, not realizing that the word abiding in us shapes the 'what ye will' that we ask for."
Hi Joe,
I agree. The Bunyan quote is revealing. I guess Bunyan was dead and intellectual.
Everyone,
The arguments for this kind of prayerism and for Charismaticism are not different. And then they go with God revealing His will, so they know to pray for the thing that is a sign.
The model prayer is not intellectual and dead. Praying biblical prayers is what prayer is about, and I can pray and pray and pray this way. I know what I'm praying, I know, I'm getting an answer, because it is a prayer of faith, based on the promises. It's living, abundantly living, and more than intellectual.
Can a believer pray:
Deliver me, O Lord, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; (Psalm 140:1)
when he does not know if it is God's will to be preserved or to be martyred?
How about Jacob, when he prayed:
Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children. (Gen 32:11)
There was no specific promise that his wives would not get killed, only that the seed would continue in some way. Was Jacob sinning in this prayer, or was he Keswick?
I would like to also understand what you believe about Mark 11:24:
“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (Mark 11:24)
Thank you.
Anonymous,
About four comments above, at 9:28am, I pasted a bunch of addresses where I answer a lot. After you've read those, and you haven't gotten your questions answered, I'd be glad to.
You know I'm ashamed that I haven't studied this topic more in depth. Even today at church we were to pray for the people brought to our attention and we discussed the movie the War Room in small group.
Looking at the movie now it is very much word of faith and about reciting scripture verses over and over. I take it that you are not a fan of the movie?
Besides the links provided to other posts about this topic do you have a good resource that one can go to for further reading on this?
Paul
Dear Anonymous,
We are also ashamed of you. Christians don't go to movies. If you are talking about War Room you are admitting that you have seen the movie. As far as I know it's not out on VCR yet. Christians watch movies 6 months or later and don't go to the theatre. My apologies if I am wrong, but as far as I know this movie is not out on VCR yet, so your comments are extremely suspicious. If you go to movies, that's a bigger problem than any other issues being discussed in this thread.
Mr. Annonymous, I checked with my wife and she has not heard that The War Room is out on VCR yet, so the fact that you have admitted that you and people in your church have already seen it is troubling. Would you mind telling us what kind of liberal church you go to?
Count me in as echoing that I too have not seen War Room yet and am also suspicious that the person who mentioned it may have inadvertently admitted they saw it at the theatre, which totally negates anything else they may have mentioned. Can anyone confirm whether it's out on video yet?
It's been out for a while now. Things end up on YouTube pretty quick. Poor anonymous. You almost got stoned.
War Room is now available on Blue Ray, DVD, and digital download. See here: http://warroomthemovie.com/home
However, I doubt that it will ever be "out on VCR."
Thanks, Anonymous. I truly LOL'd when I read the "out on VCR" statement.
And, thankfully, everything the other anonymous said has not been completely and instantaneously invalidated.