Almost required in the world of theology is coming down for one or the other, and only one or the other, Calvinism or Arminianism. I oppose this requirement. Because such a requirement exists, people invent and label a new position such as Provisionism. Or, they dredge up an older, rarely mentioned one, like Amyraldism, very difficult to explain or understand. Such as these seem to attempt to fill a gap between the two poles of Calvinism and Arminianism. Some people will just say, Biblicism, declaring that neither pole represents the Bible. We should admit that everyone thinks they’re taking a biblical position.
For myself, I listen, I hope, through a biblical grid. I want to believe one position or the other is the truth, but I also desire biblical persuading. When I give ear to Calvinism, I’ve got problems, even when I’m trying hard to believe it. When I hear the points of Calvinism, an alternative arises in my mind from biblical exegesis. I’m calling the first point. . . .
1. EACH PERSON’S SPIRITUAL BANKRUPTCY
Another alternative arises in my mind with the second point,
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
I’m calling this second point. . . . .
2. GOD’S ELECTION ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE
Chosen through Belief in the Truth
Unconditional election doesn’t conform to the Bible. A great verse that expresses the condition is 2 Thessalonians 2:13:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
Paul writes that God from the beginning has chosen to salvation through belief of the truth. Belief of the truth is the condition. God chooses or elects from the beginning and “before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4). Ephesians 1:4 also says “elect in him.” That’s another condition. God doesn’t choose those out of him, but in him. 2 Timothy 1:9 says;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Before the world began, according to His grace God called those in Christ Jesus. 1 Peter 1:2 says:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Election According to Foreknowledge
God elects according to His foreknowledge. “Foreknowledge” comes from a Greek word, it won’t amaze you, that means, “to know ahead of time.” God knows everything. Nothing occurs to Him.
Among other reasons, God elects before the foundation of the world and from the beginning because (1) He is not bound by time. He exists in what some call “an eternal present,” which is seen in His name, “the I AM.” God just is, and then (2) He is omniscient. He knows everything in eternity past, present, and eternity future.
Who Does God Elect?
Since election is according to God knowing ahead of time who He saves and who He doesn’t, then He can elect before the foundation of the world. This, however, is where the rub comes for Calvinists. God elects whom He foreknows. Who does God elect? Who are the elect?
On this, you should consider Romans 8:29-30:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Perhaps you already know this passage. As you work your way through these two verses, you can see that God foreknows whom he justified. Whom does God justify? Those who believe in Jesus Christ. This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, chosen through belief in the truth. Romans 5:1 says that God justifies by faith. What does God foreknow? He knows who believes in Him before the foundation of the world and those He elects.
What difference does that election make? It secures that person. God knows who will be with Him in heaven forever. That gives security for the believer, the justified person.
The Decider?
What would the Calvinist have as a problem with what I’m writing here? I’ve heard it and read it. Calvinists will say that God is the Decider. They might take that from some place like John 1:12-13:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is a place that says faith precedes regeneration. God gave power to become the sons of God to those who receive and believe on Jesus Christ. Calvinists will say that man deciding is “the will of the flesh or the will of man.” They also say that God isn’t sovereign if man is decider and not God.
Nowhere does scripture make an issue over who is the decider. The way scripture reads, man does decide. The Calvinist very often would equate that to salvation by works. They make the decision a work. Faith is not a work and faith is the deciding factor.
Even with a man deciding by faith in Jesus Christ, God still also decides in advance, because He elects before the foundation of the world. God has also worked much in the life of the person who receives and believes on Jesus Christ through many different scriptural means without which God wouldn’t save him.
Men Made Up Unconditional Election
Men made up unconditional election. It isn’t in the Bible anywhere. I understand that Calvinists will say that God predetermines who He will save. I like to call this, picking people out of the pot of humanity. Scripture doesn’t present salvation like that. God elects those in Christ. He chooses people with a standing in grace. They believe first, but they can’t believe, like I explained in the first post, without the Word of God. A man gets revelation from God and He believes. God foreknows his faith and everything else about him.
If deciding is believing, then deciding isn’t a problem. And deciding is believing. It could only be “believing” because scripture doesn’t use “decider” in its language. Someone can’t believe without God working in him. God is still sovereign and He still gets all the credit.
More to Come
Kent, someone has already beat you to coming up with an alternative to TULIP. In a new book called LOTUS, which I am currently reading, the author destroys the entire Calvinist system. An excellent read.
https://www.c4capologetics.com/what-is-lotus
https://www.amazon.com/LOTUS-Free-Grace-Response-TULIP/dp/B0CTHFHZKM/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
Hi Gary,
Thanks for pointing that out. I can tell that I don’t agree with LOTUS either. Maybe I’ll write a post or two on the free grace theology represented by LOTUS.
Hello Brother Brandenburg,
Thanks for the two posts on this subject. I’m in agreement with what you’ve written. To clarify your point are you saying that “As many as received him” and “Chosen through… belief of the truth” as cross references prove that the “foreknowledge” of Romans 8 and 1 Peter 1 is the foreknowledge that we would believe?
Second, could you give a quick thought on what you think “through sanctification of the Spirit” means?
Thank you
Basically, yes, on the first point. We’ve got to go with what the Bible says, not what it doesn’t.
I’m sorry, I didn’t answer “sanctification of or by the Spirit.” The Holy Spirit, I believe, sanctifies in a saving way in at least two ways. One, positional sanctification such as Hebrews 10:14. A believer never stops being sanctified by the Spirit. And then related to that, two, He keeps sanctifying us, which is His continuing to save us.
Brother Kent,
You wrote:
“What does God foreknow? He knows who believes in Him before the foundation of the world and those He elects.”
Are you saying that God knows, (1) for example Bob Smith is foreknown to be saved on Jan 1, 2025 in the town of Nowhere, IN “before the foundation of the world, or (2) “that God foreknew that anyone who will “call upon Jesus Christ by faith” will be saved “before the foundation of the world” or (3) something else?
Tom
1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:5, Jeremiah 23:24. God knows everything, period. He understands all mysteries and knowledge. If He knows when each sparrow hops, the secrets of our hearts, and the exact number of hairs on our head, then He knows the exact date we would receive Jesus Christ.
Therefore, “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord” is based on limited atonement? Only the “elect” can get saved (“He knows the exact date we would receive Jesus Christ”)?
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
(Psalms 147:5)
That has nothing to do with how he uses his knowledge and understanding. As I said, if you have “infinite futures” that are determined as open possibilities, and all those futures create more futures with more possibilities, and all are understood by God without any predetermination, yet God can bring to pass any “fixed point” of prophecy or his determined word and will upon all those undetermined futures of man, then what else do you call that except “his understanding is infinite”?
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
(Jeremiah 23:24)
That does not tell us who he sees and when he sees him only that if he hides himself in a secret place and God wants or needs to know, he can see him or even send his angels to point him out.
Of course his Spirit fills heaven and earth. That says nothing about how he does things.
Once again, knowing the secrets of our hearts does not mean that He needs to know them NOW. He can know them when He needs to know them.
As for the exact numbers of hairs, that changes every minute! Do you think God sits around and counts them every minute so he can have an update? All that says, once again, when and if he needs to know that number, He can get it.
He does not know the exact date we would receive Jesus Christ. That is determined by if we believe the gospel. If we are saved, the Lord knows the exact date, time and second of our conversation. He then might write it by our names in the book of life or keep it elsewhere.
Tom
Tom,
I’ve never encountered an open theist until you. I’ve only known Open Theism existed because of written articles and speeches about it. I have a hard time thinking anyone would ever think of it except it were fed them from someone who makes a logical jump from scripture to conform to the position. I also believe Calvinism does this, so it seems like a reaction to Calvinism, not to what the Bible teaches.
To make way for open theism, this fictional concept of “possible futures” is invented. It seems like science fiction, like the multiverse invented as a logical jump by naturalists who can’t explain origins without God.
One logical jump by Calvinists is this idea or concept that foreknowledge is predetermination. Predetermination exists by God, but not for salvation. Election is according to foreknowledge with God not predetermination, which drives Calvinists mad like what I’m saying from the Bible drives you mad because you also make foreknowledge predetermination and then reject knowledge of God.
This theory that God knows all possible futures, hence is omniscient, it just IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Pardon my caps, but I wanted to emphasize that without italics, because I didn’t want you to miss it.
What is missed by your theory? And it is a theory, you did not originate, but you have swallowed. Of course, God did not know that the theory would exist about his knowledge, just that the theory was in one possible future (I say this with some serious tongue-in-cheek). What is missed is the security of the I AM about salvation, that we could never lose it once God knew He saved us. It also diminishes the knowledge of God.
Dealing with the outcomes of God’s infinite knowledge, God is still good. Knowledge doesn’t make Him the author of sin. Just because He knows it would happen and didn’t stop it, that does not define evil. That’s where free will comes in. It’s if God willed the sin, that’s the problem, and that’s where the Calvinists leap past scripture to tease out their theory.
My problem is that you deny the plain meaning. I don’t see open theism gaining any hold in the world, because it is so, so strange.
Kent,
You say it is “not in the bible”, but all you did what give me some philosophy without actually showing me HOW predetermination and foreknowledge actually work. I gave you examples, but you did not directly comment on those examples given. By those examples, I clearly gave you the PLAIN meaning.
So, I will make it as easy as I can to understand what you are trying to teach.
We have a pastor named Bob Smith, who committed adultery with a the wife of a brother in Christ in the church he pastors. The elders were informed about this when his grieving wife showed them proof that this affair was going on for 6 months. The husband of the adulterous woman was ignorant of all this until he was told by the elders.
When did God know about this adulterous affair?
Tom
1 John 3:20, “For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.” This isn’t a philosophy. God. . . knoweth all things. Period.
Psalm 147:5, “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.” The Hebrew word translated “infinite” means innumerable. “Understanding” is insight, use of knowledge, discernment. Infinite understanding requires infinite knowledge.
Colossians 2:3, “In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” Jesus, who is God, has in Him all knowledge.
Psalm 139:4, “For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.” This is a verse among dozens through the Bible that communicate God’s omniscience. He knows everything that everyone says. Every word.
This is how scripture talks about God. He knows the beginning and ending of everything. He knows everything knowable and unknowable. This isn’t a philosophy. It’s the revealed nature of God.
I’m not going to answer the hypothetical, because above answers it, and you know it.
Kent,
Since you did not want to answer that question, I will give you a bible verse.
Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
The context is God speaking and He Himself tells Abraham “for NOW I know…”.
Could you please explain what God knew now?
Tom
Hi Tom,
Giving the verse is a better way to deal with this than a hypothetical. Genesis 22:12 doesn’t solve the open theism problem for you, because God still doesn’t “know” whether Abraham will not fail in the future to stay faithful, based upon your terms. It also means that God didn’t know all of the future outcomes, because this one He did not know, blowing your whole system to pieces, making everything you’ve been saying about His knowledge a lie.
I’ve explained this particular issue in scripture already in these comments, that being that God in His sovereignty operates with a cause and effect for mankind, which fits exactly what I’ve been writing in this series that we’re not talking about here still. I’m having to write a series on open theism instead in addition to the point of Calvin.
“Now I know” doesn’t mean that God didn’t know until then. There is knowing, yes, and knowing. You could say, you know someone can do this and then you say, I’ve seen it, observed it, and now I know. The Hebrew word has this as one aspect of its meaning, to know by observation. I’m not saying that knowing ahead of time eliminates the actual experience of the thing known. God reassures Abraham by telling Him that He knows now. Would Abraham think He didn’t know already? I don’t believe so. It is the only time this expression is used of God, but it doesn’t contradict other ways God presents Himself related to His attributes, like I’ve written. The question is, does knowledge here mean that God just obtained this knowledge, which would not harmonize with divine foreknowledge and infinite knowledge, like omniscience? If one passage says God knows everything and then another one says, “now I know,” the latter must be interpreted in light of the former. This also answers your other comment.
Brother Kent,
One more example of 100’s I can give to you:
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
(Genesis 4:7)
This is God speaking to Cain. He said to him, “IF thou doest well…”. Did God mean what He said? Did He actually give Cain an option to decide or was it predetermined beforehand what Cain would decide?
Tom
Kent,
You wrote: “I’ve never encountered an open theist until you.”
I been teaching this for 30 years. I never heard of “open theism” until 10 years ago. I do not teach exactly what they teach since the book I read was not based on the King James Bible.
You wrote: “this fictional concept of “possible futures” is invented.”
I am an expert in Digital and Analog Design, having designed very complex systems that you probably have no concept of. I have studied particle physics and understand complex mathematical systems. I have written complex embedded SW code that you probably could not even understand. I am certain that if I gave you the code, you would have no clue in determining what it does, how to compile it, build into the system and then create a testing environment to prove that it works.
I develop systems that control “future events” based on inputs received and then HW designed that has complex embedded SW PID controllers to not only run the designed system, but use complex AI state control logic (we used a form of neural networks and sophisticated Kalman filters) to learn its environment and adjust its operation accordingly.to efficiently manage its uncertainties (errors) and adjust accordingly.
Therefore, if I can invent systems like I have for over 30 years, please do not tell me that MY God cannot have such a great and superior mind (MY ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts- Isaiah 55) that he can manage “infinite futures” and make decisions, or even “change his ways” to either work out circumstances to answer prayer for his children, or destroy those who are abhorred by him, or bring to pass his prophecies no matter what mankind does.
You wrote: “what I’m saying from the Bible drives you mad because you also make foreknowledge predetermination and then reject knowledge of God.”
What are you talking about? You misunderstand all of those terms or how they apply to the bible. I proved that by my examples. God’s foreknowledge is that he knew that Abraham COULD kill his son. He predetermined to try Him (Romans 4) by setting him up to reveal his faithfulness. God knew he was faithful when He came and STOPPED him (now I know), giving him a lamb that God brought and put in the thicket.
That is based on my reading of the scriptures, in context, without any faux interpretation (using your term) you used to round around what was simply written. I do not need to know any Hebrew to prove the truth.
You wrote: ” Just because He knows it would happen and didn’t stop it, that does not define evil.”
It does define God as being evil, IF that was the only known way that it could turn out because it was predetermined by God “before the foundation of the world” (Single future) that sinners will sin because God made them that way. MY God did not! That is pure Calvinism.
Tom
Tom,
You are not answering what I’m saying. I’m not sure you even read it. You see through this grid, what I call living in the barrel, so that your world looks like the barrel. I’ve known about open theism, but truly have never talked to someone who believed it. Historically, I know only the Socinians who took the position, which should not give confidence.
It actually doesn’t surprise me that you are intelligent, even that you work in the field you do. These kinds of doctrines don’t come from dumb people. They’re so complicated that they couldn’t. Your view is that God doesn’t know everything as a nature, even though scripture says He knows everything, because that takes away free will, because foreknowledge in your definition is predetermination, which you’ve never explained. That’s the same position that Calvinists take, Tom. They turn a word that means, know ahead of time, and turn it into predetermination because it conforms to their presuppositions. You’re doing the same thing, much like you’re doing with the preservation issue, denying a settled, original language text.
God knows everything past, present, and future. This is clear in Isaiah 41:22-23 in God’s contest with false gods: “22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.” This whole section of Isaiah 40-48 talks about this. God can show what shall happen. He knows the latter end of things, declaring things to come. That is foreknowledge.
The one verse you’ve got, “now know,” doesn’t clash with God’s foreknowledge of everything. There are so many legitimate explanations of this that fit into what God already reveals about Himself. I mentioned the various usages or meanings of the Hebrew word, which includes, “I now observe or I now see.” Who are these tests and trials for? It isn’t for God to find out. He already knows. The trial strengthens us, brings what James calls “patience,” which is endurance, and it also indicates something like we see in Job, where Satan gets to see the result, angels get to see the result. God already knew that Job was a righteous man. How would He know that without foreknowledge?
Anyway, I’ve given you enough, and you started this conversation in this space not designated for one about open theism, and I allowed it. This will be the last comment on this from anyone. You are welcome to comment, but not on this subject anymore, unless I choose to write about it. That is good manners on a blog site.
Kent,
I do not want you to misrepresent me. I said before that God knows all possibilities (knows ahead of time all these possibilities or futures), but He does not necessarily control all outcomes.
Much to say, but I will stop here based on your request.
Tom
So Let me correct my representation of Tom. He believes God knows every possible future outcome, not knowing for certain what will really happen, but He can control outcomes.
“Nowhere does scripture make an issue over who is the decider. The way scripture reads, man does decide. The Calvinist very often would equate that to salvation by works. They make the decision a work. Faith is not a work and faith is the deciding factor.”
That is the biblical truth. God never violates a man’s will or any of his created creatures to make choices. God can at anytime make His choice to either intervene or not intervene based on his character and attributes given in the scriptures.
What that teaches is that God knows “10 to the power of some unbelievable number” of possible futures and that He can interact within those to bring to pass prophesied “fixed point” events given in the scriptures (EX: Christ coming and Him dying on the cross).
Now that is truly an omniscient, omnipotent and Omnipresent God!
Tom
Now that we’ve replied and they can be read, I’m going to remove every comment from Janet and the answers to her from Thomas and myself. I don’t want them in the comment section.
Kent,
When you say “deciding factor”, as a programmer, I think “variable”. Although “salvation is of the Lord”, and “no man can come…except the Father…draw him” (John 6:44) , man is the variable, not God, “with whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” (James 1:17). “There is no respect of persons with God” (Romans 2:11).
Thanks,
Mat D.
Mat,
It’s good.
Let me say one more thing, because it is strong, what you wrote. God isn’t going to vary. His election is true. He doesn’t change (even with the whole change of mind, which is still His immutability despite, as I explained to Tom). Man is woeful and wayward and He believes and changes. God is always righteous and He elects the believer, not variating, as you wrote.
Hello Mat,
I take that to mean that when fallen man (the variable) calls upon the name of the Lord (fixed, no variableness in salvation), then the Lord will draw him unto himself (again, that is God’s unchanging condition), then that man becomes “elect” in Christ making God “no respecter of persons” therefore, he does not choose anyone “before the foundation of the world” for that would make Him a “respecter of persons”.
Is that your point or conclusion that “limited atonement” (Christ died for the sins of the elect alone who were known before the foundations of the world, and no atonement was provided for the reprobate) is a false doctrine?
Tom
You wrote:
“Among other reasons, God elects before the foundation of the world and from the beginning because (1) He is not bound by time. He exists in what some call “an eternal present,” which is seen in His name, “the I AM.” God just is, and then (2) He is omniscient. He knows everything in eternity past, present, and eternity future.”
That is just a wrong presupposition. The eternal I AM is God in His abode. He does not exist in “an eternal present” when dealing with his creation. His creation is not eternal! He is apart from his creation, yet he can intercede within. What God eventually did is set TIME and Seasons (Genesis 1) to run his creation. Time has a past, present and future. It does not have an eternity past, present and future. There is only one that is eternal, and that is the Eternal God (Deuteronomy 33:27).
I know every verse in the bible concerning the “eternity of God” which is associated with “eternal life”. Everyone of them is God separate from His creation. Eternal life is not his creation, but in His person, the Lord Jesus Christ. In his creation, God bounds Himself by what He created, time. We are now bound within that time.
That is how the bible is written, yet you want to presuppose its writing given to man as though He wrote it to himself?
I read this verse this morning:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. That is the eternal God in Jesus Christ who sits outside of time, yet intercedes within time (which is- present, which was-past, and which is to come- rapture/2nd coming)
And to say that what I teach is heresy is to your detriment.
Please show me in the Bible where God deals with man in the eternal presence? Makes no sense at all because it is not in the bible.
That is why you will not deal with specifics. If you say that God knew that preacher would commit adultery (he knew all of the possibilities- futures) before he committed it, then you must accuse God of actually being the one who predetermined him to sin at that time, even though the Spirit of God lived in the preacher!
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:22)
Tom
Tom,
I’ve never encountered a person with your position, so it’s interesting in that sense. As I read it, I promise you that I’m open to your being right. I’ve read the Bible multiple times and preached through every word and in the original languages (which you reject), many of those books taught multiple times that same way. I am thinking scripture. I spent months on Revelation 1 this year. What you write doesn’t even give me a pause, because it reads as not true. Not. True. It is a system of interpretation, where you fit scripture into your predetermined box, not seeing the whole and fitting the pieces in. I would say there are many other problems.
There is such a thing as eternity past, and it’s just a terminology like, the Trinity, because it is before the foundations of the world. How could there be a before to time? You just set a trap for yourself. Before the mountains were brought forth. Again. It’s interesting how you intimate your own unique knowledge, but you limit God’s.
Your little dealing with “I AM” is wrong. Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This was him not in heaven but on earth. God is both transcendent and immanent. And the I Am declared Himself to man through the Son. When Jehovah presented himself to Moses as the I AM, it was through a burning bush.
Just wow on setting time to run His creation. It doesn’t say that. He created the astronomical bodies and what those bodies did for seasons through their precise movements. That’s what Genesis 1 says. Show me one place in Genesis 1 that says that he set time to run the seasons, or even says time and seasons, even if you put TIME in all caps. It’s not in there. You say about these writings, this is how the Bible is written, and yet it isn’t. Please. I’m guessing you will not acquiesce, because you just don’t. Maybe you can’t.
When scripture says that we have “life,” that is spiritual life, the Greek word, zoe, which is different than biological life. God says I give unto them eternal life and it is more than quantity of life, but also a quality of life. When we have that life, we have it now, eternal life. This is God, but He gives eternal life to us and we will never perish. Does that include the eternal state? Yes.
You are totally wrong on why I wouldn’t deal with your hypothetical. You don’t have mind reading skills. You say, “That is why…” Wrong. I didn’t tell you why I wouldn’t deal with your absurd illustration. There is a reason people won’t deal with hypotheticals and that is not the reason why.
Nevertheless, God is unlimited in knowledge, but with scripture we should limit ourselves to what He said. Knowing someone commits adultery is not predetermining it. God knows it, but He doesn’t cause it. He is not tempted to sin and He doesn’t tempt anyone to sin.
A clear presentation of God dealing with man in eternal present is what Paul writes in Romans 8:29-30. Those He foreknew, He called, He justified, He predestined to conform to the image of His Son, He glorified. Those are all aorist tense verbs, meaning completed action. How could he do that when these people were never born? I could keep explaining it, but I’m coming to an end here.