Home » Search results for 'king james version' (Page 26)
Search Results for: king james version
God’s Evaluation of the Judgment of an Individual Church
The world places a low value on the judgment of a church. Even churches today, or professing Christians, do not consider the decisions of a church to be worthwhile. But what does God think? Can we know what He thinks? We have a passage of scripture in which we receive the Divine point of view: 1 Corinthians 6:1-4.
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
Observations about Church Discipline from 1 Corinthians 5
Part five of my story about how I left fundamentalism engendered some controversy in the comment section of the post about a few points therein. The most contention came with the attack on a case of discipline practiced by our church. At least two readers questioned the veracity, integrity, or credibility of our church. They argued that they could ignore the discipline of our church with impunity, rightfully rejecting it and then accepting the excommunicated member. One of the key ideas is that one church does not have authority over another one, so a church cannot stop another church from taking in its former, disciplined member. Another thought is that to be able accept witnesses, one had to be present to be sure that everything was done right. People are sinful and can do wrong things, so it would be easy for someone to receive discipline who really didn’t deserve it.
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
First, Paul wasn’t in Corinth to witness the sin in Corinth himself. You can see in v. 1 that it was reported to him by others. We can and should believe reports from others. If several people are saying that they are seeing the same thing, that report can be believed. And Paul believed. An unwillingness to believe a report is just that, an unwillingness to believe it. It should be believed.
Second, according to v. 3, Paul believed that he could unilaterally decide, based upon that report, without even being present, that discipline should have been enacted. And we are talking about the church at Corinth here, who was harboring a man in the state of committing incest without repentance. Could anyone there be trustworthy to give an accurate report when no one had stepped up to the discipline of this man? Paul had already decided that this man should have been removed from the church.
Third, in v. 4, Paul calls upon the vertical authority of Jesus Himself in the case of discipline. Jesus is acting in church discipline. The “power of our Lord Jesus Christ” goes back to Jesus’ teaching on discipline in Matthew 18. What is bound or loosed on earth is bound or loosed in heaven. Heaven is acting in a case of church discipline, even if it were the church at Corinth. And then when two or three witnesses speak in a case of church discipline, Jesus’ presence is there in their witness.
Why would there need to be so much of an introduction to the method of church discipline, calling upon the authority of Jesus Christ in it? Because men are going to question and attack church discipline. They will have their “reasons” to do so, moving into the credibility and the veracity of the church. But they are crossing Jesus when they do so, because Paul said that Jesus’ power was involved as well. Paul calls upon the “name of Jesus Christ” because church discipline is exactly what Jesus would have done if He were there. We get a taste of that from Revelation 2:18ff when Jesus speaks to the church at Thyatira for harboring a Jezebel in its midst.
Fourth, Paul relates the authority of the church in this matter, when he writes, “when ye are gathered together” in v. 4. There was no authority over the church of Corinth in its discipline of this member. Paul says “ye.” That church was operating with the power of Jesus Christ when it gathered together. A person or other church which ignores the discipline by a church, when the issue is witnessed by two, three, or even commonly reported, they disrespect Jesus. It’s His power by which this is done. Surely the credibility of the church of Corinth could be questioned, but even with that church, it was the power of Jesus at work in discipline.
A separate church, gathered together, has the authority to discipline a member. That is the kind of authority God gives a church. And God trusts a church in doing that. It is a shame when other professing Christians or churches will not do that. Really it is more than a shame, it is a repudiation of Jesus Christ Himself, because the act of discipline was done by His authority. The discipline of a single church is the act of Jesus. His authority rests with a church.
Some might judge Bethel Baptist Church in El Sobrante, CA to be illegitimate simply because it believes in one text of Scripture, which English translation is only the King James Version, or because it believes God expects men and women to wear clothes with designed distinctions between genders. Or they might judge that Bethel Baptist Church should be ignored in its discipline because its pastor, like other pastors, makes strong, dogmatic statements about belief as if scripture is perspicuous. They might feel justified in disbelieving a violation which is commonly reported by that church. I would ask anyone like that to consider the problems of the church of Corinth, and that Paul believed that church could and should practice discipline of its members even without his presence. And then understand that you do not just oppose Bethel Baptist Church, but also the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, when you disrespect its discipline.
When I Left Fundamentalism part two
As a Bible college and graduate school student, I was immersed in fundamentalism. A fundamentalist college begets fundamentalist graduates of one stripe or another. However, fundamentalism wasn’t what I was thinking when my new wife and I left to evangelize the East San Francisco Bay Area, north of Oakland. We would first meet in the multipurpose room of a public elementary school in Hercules, California, so I knocked on the first door next to that building, and then kept knocking.
Aaron on TSKT, part four
It’s now a month or two ago that Aaron Blumer, the owner of the blog-forum, SharperIron, wrote the fourth, and, it seems, final installment of a series in which he criticizes the content of the book, Thou Shalt Keep Them (TSKT). I’m going to evaluate that fourth post paragraph by paragraph and in certain cases, line by line (link to the introduction to this post).
Aaron starts by saying that biblical doctrine is derived from Scripture. Exactly. We wish that would be the basis for Aaron’s position, instead of his “dispersed text” view that says that we apparently have the words dispersed among all the available manuscripts. We don’t know what they are or even where they are. But, he would insist, we have some basis to know that we have enough of the Bible to obey God. This would mean that he is also saying that the very words are not what God sees is important to mankind’s receiving of His message.
As he continues in his introduction, you do want to pay attention to a certain feature of Aaron’s presentation. He writes in the second paragraph that “God assures us that His Word will endure forever and will not pass away.” Catch the singular “Word.” Not the plural “Words.” If you say that God assures that He will preserve His “Word” for us on earth, then you can still not have all of the very Words and not know where they are all at, and yet still have His “Word.” Also notice that he writes, “will not pass away,” taking language from Matthew 24:35 where Jesus promises that His “words shall not pass away,” not His “Word,” singular. So Aaron says that the important thing is to get your position from the Bible and then he changes “Words” to “Word,” knowing the difference that makes to the meaning of the verse. He does this a few other times in his article. It isn’t thinking about this scripturally.
In his next sentence, Aaron writes: “He assures us that believers will have sufficient access to His Word until all is fulfilled.” I haven’t read any doctrine of accessibility that Aaron has agreed upon in this series. We have taught that point from Scripture and he has denied. Now he doesn’t say that He thinks that we have access to all the Words, but He does believe in access. Is that in the Bible? And if so, why is it that we have sufficient access to a percentage of the Words and not all of them? If there is access, then the access should reflect what the Bible says will be the access, since that’s where we get our doctrine. Of course, access passages say that we have access to all the Words.
Next he gives three bullet points that he says “some insist” must be included to be a “true doctrine of preservation.” The first is the preservation of “every word in its original form.” Isn’t that what preservation is? If you had 100 marbles and I said I preserved them for you and then handed you 93 of them, you woudn’t think that I preserved them.
His next point is “continual access by many believers.” That is not exactly our position. We believe there is access to every generation of believers. And isn’t this the point of preservation, so that we would, you know, have the words. Let’s go back to the marbles. Let’s say that you gave me the 100 marbles, and I said, I’ve preserved them for you. And then I said, but I don’t know where they are at; I only know that they are around somewhere. Anyone with even half a brain would know that is the equivalent of them being lost. You get the point.
His third bullet point says “Certain identifiability in the form of a perfect text.” The third point is where the greatest rub is for the so-called “dispersed preservation” people. They don’t believe we have one “text” with all the Words in it; well, because God never said what textual edition He would preserve. There we go. Aaron writes about this in the second half of the introduction. And yet that is a straw man because Scripture promises the preservation of every Word, not the preservation of one magical copy that would move its way down through history.
In the last little section of his introduction, he writes: “That every single word is preserved is not in dispute.” Um. Wrong. That is very much in dispute. Does Aaron believe that we have the original words of 1 Samuel 13:1 in any Hebrew manuscript? Most of the authors of God’s Word in Our Hands, a book that proposes the same view as Aaron, don’t believe there is an existent text with the original Words of 1 Samuel 13:1 in it. That sounds like a dispute.
A Clear View of the Central Question
Aaron says the quest for the biblical position relates to this question: “Do we have biblical statements that say, or clearly imply, that believers will have access to every word of Scripture in the form of a text they know is flawless?” There are minefields here. First, Scripture doesn’t teach the preservation of a form of a text, but the preservation of every Word. Second, Scripture doesn’t say that believers will “know” what those Words are. However, I believe that, based on the teaching of Scripture, from both its direct statements and implications, believers will know what every Word is, so that they will be able to have that flawless form of the text. These are important little details here.
In the second paragraph of this section, Aaron mentions the distortion and sabotage of the Words of Scripture. We have a section on that in TSKT. One of the points of that was to show from Scripture that God Himself said that men were already corrupting the Word of God, so that we would understand that the Bible was already being altered in the first century. The main reason for including that in TSKT was to show from Scripture why “earliest manuscripts are the best manuscripts” can’t be said to be true. Later under the heading of “Indirect biblical arguments,” Aaron talks about this again, where he again misses the point, which was plain.
A Final Look at Thou Shalt Keep Them
In this little section Aaron makes this statement: “I focused on [TSKT] as an example of one of the better efforts to establish PTP biblically as the correct doctrine of preservation.” Wrong. TSKT wasn’t making an effort to establish PTP biblically. He frames TSKT wrongfully here, and this does expose Aaron. We studied the Bible on the doctrine of preservation. What we wrote in TSKT is a record of part of our findings. In light of that, I considered this question, “What and when have books been written that would established the ‘dispersed text’ as a Biblical position?” That is, “What works done about preservation of Scripture would show that the Bible teaches this ‘dispersed view’ of preservation?” I’m not going to be able to find that book to read. There is none. I don’t think anyone has written that book because that view isn’t found in the Bible.
“It Is Written”
Aaron wrote about Dave Sutton’s chapter on gegraptai, the perfect passive, third person, singular, of grapho. Pastor Sutton has already answered Aaron’s criticism, but I want to add a little more. A lot of biblical teaching would be voided if someone took the same approach to Scripture as seen in Aaron’s criticism. He says that the perfect tense does not guarantee future preservation, only present preservation. Of course, the perfect looks at the results of some past action from the point of view of the reader. With a perfect verb the reader knows that the results of some action in the past are ongoing. With the perfect, there is no assumption that those results are going to stop. The product of the writing of those Old Testament texts completed in the past were still existent at the time that Christ referenced them fifteen hundred years later. Does that teach preservation? Of course it does. But Aaron sees in the perfect tense that there is no guarantee for the future. But why would one think that, if it is God that has preserved it up to that point? That’s not the purpose of the perfect tense, that is, to hold off on guaranteeing anything in the future. If that were the case, many eternal security passages would be dealt a blow that they shouldn’t. Why? Because the reader shouldn’t think that his salvation is secure anytime past that present moment, at least according to Aaron’s way of thinking on the perfect tense.
To cover his bases, Aaron then says that even if the perfect was making some guarantee for the future, it would only be ensuring the reader of the preservation of just the Words to which Jesus referred and no more. That seems to be a very cynical view. It is akin to saying that only the Apostle Paul could have blood on his hands for not preaching the whole counsel of God’s Word. After all, he didn’t say that everyone would have that kind of responsibility, just himself. This is not the right approach to Scripture. We should assume from the use gegraptai that there is a teaching there about the preservation of all of God’s inspired Words. Aaron seems to me to be making the Word of God of no effect through some tradition.
“The word is very nigh unto thee”
Aaron makes his disputation here: “The author illustrates a widespread error in TSKT’s argument—the leap from “words” to “every one of the words.” . . . . However the passage does not say that every jot and tittle had to be in their “mouths” before they could obey.” I don’t think that Aaron read that chapter carefully enough. Deuteronomy 30:11 says that “this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee.” In the previous verse, we get the commandment: “to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law.” So especially with this being repeated in Romans 10, the implication is that all the “written” commandments and statutes would be available. None of that is mentioned by Aaron. Instead he chooses to present the strawman to his readers.
“Mindful of the words…Remember the words”
Aaron says that TSKT does not make a strong case for accessibility from 2 Peter 3:2 and Jude 17. He says that the “chapter fails to make a strong case but claims to have done so anyway.” Here’s the essence of the chapter. You can’t be mindful of or remember Words that you don’t have. So if Peter and Jude are calling on their readers to remember the Words of all the prophets and the apostles, which would represent the Words of all of the Bible, it is implied that they would have those Words available. Aaron doesn’t think that’s a strong case. So Aaron would be saying that when Peter and Jude said “remember the Words of the prophets and the apostles,” that meant “some of the Words,” not all of them. Aaron seems not to want Scripture to be saying what it is actually saying.
Indirect biblical arguments
TSKT asserts that doctrines are changed, altered, or lost in the critical text. One of the critical text assertions is that no doctrine is altered by the differences between the critical text and the textus receptus. Aaron contends that doctrines are only changed in individual texts (which doesn’t seem to matter so much to him—he doesn’t comment on that at all), that is, only if those passages stand alone, not, however, in the whole of Scripture. And he says that he just randomly picks out 1 Peter 2:2 as an example. Well, to make his point, he really can’t take out just one of the passages as an example. He would have to show how that this does not ever occur.
One of the passages referenced in TSKT is Matthew 18:15-17. In v. 15, the King James Version (from the TR) says, “if thy brother shall trespass against thee.” The New American Standard Version (from the critical text) says, “if thy brother sins.” The critical text, and therefore the modern versions, leaves out “against thee.” That, my friends, changes the doctrine there. And this is the only place in the Bible where this particular teaching is found. Aaron should have been a little less random in his choices. He says that “every textual difference in these chapters is similarly non-decisive doctrinally.” Wrong.
Other arguments
Aaron deals with the canonicity argument of chapter 19 by writing, “The books of the Bible are canonical because God inspired them.” I defy Aaron to show me a verse from Scripture, since that is where we get our doctrine, that says that God inspired “Books.” He says Books are canonical because they are inspired. What does that say about the canonicity of “every writing,” which the Bible actually says God inspired? Aaron denies the latter, which is in Scripture, for the former, which isn’t.
If you remember Aaron’s original question, he concentrates on whether believers will “know” what is the flawless form of text of Scripture. TSKT spends several chapters showing what Scripture says about how God’s Words would be preserved. Aaron doesn’t even mention that. The canonicity argument explains how Israel and the church would “know” what the Words were. How? God would guide them. The Holy Spirit would guide the church to the Words. He wrote them, so He can also guide the church to those Words. He never refutes that particular point, when that is the historic position of the church on preservation.
The Holy Spirit would enable the church to know what the Words were. Aaron says this rests on one’s interpretation of history. But how is this any different than canonicity? How can we “know” what the “Books” of Scripture are? Is that too just an interpretation of history? Aaron is simply choosing what he will call “interpretation of history” and what he won’t.
Speaking of the Books of Scripture, Aaron writes in this section: “His people were able to exercise discernment and recognize their inspired quality.” This should be a bit of an “aha” moment for us. In the second paragraph after his introduction, Aaron writes that the question is not, “Is God able to overcome human nature so that those He chooses perfectly preserve the text?” Just replace the word “text” with the word “Books.” This is where we’re at in this whole issue. Aaron “knows” what the Books are. God’s people were “able” to recognize the Books of Scripture. Why? Well, that was, it seems, a comprehensible use of God’s power over individuals who were crippled by sin. According to Aaron, the church is too sinful for God to enable to know what the Words are but not sinful enough to know what the Books are. Why? Because God inspired the Books. Do you get it? If you don’t, I understand. Aaron says that it is not a matter of what God was able to do. But, yes, it is that matter for Aaron. He isn’t taking His preservation of Books view from a verse. He believes it is what God is able to do. God could overcome men’s sinful natures to perfectly preserve Books only. That is something God could do. However, we wouldn’t want to strain God with the task of perfectly preserving Words, even though those are what God did say He inspired.
The preceding paragraph exposes Aaron, as well as others like Him. I’ve found that the “verse” that guides the advocates for this “dispersed view” of preservation is the one found in One Bible Only? by Kevin Bauder. He wrote: “No two manuscripts contain exactly the same Words.” That statement is not actually true. It has been proven to be false. But even if it were true, which they believe it to be, that’s the “verse” that is the basis for the critical text, eclectic text, or dispersed text view. It’s not in the Bible. It’s not actually a verse, but it may as well be to the critical text proponents. Reason presides over this choice, not faith. They make the choice that they can comprehend. And, of course, it makes the scientists of textual criticism the authority over the Words of God with their denial of theological presuppositions. I do believe it’s like the choice that Jehovah’s Witnesses make about the deity of Christ. They make the comprehensible choice, the one that makes the most sense to their own reasoning, disregarding the statements of Scripture.
To end his criticism of TSKT, Aaron chronicles the “pseudo-arguments” of TSKT. Of course, these are not even arguments, but it makes for clever rhetoric by Aaron. He also says that we participate in a little “mind-reading” in judging the opponents of the doctrine of perfect preservation. That’s to be expected on his part. But since we don’t have a theology of “dispersed preservation” to read anywhere (because there couldn’t be one), we are left with the only possible explanations for a non-biblical or unbiblical point of view. If it’s not in the Bible, where besides man’s reasoning could a view come from? This doesn’t take mind reading, but simple logic.
Aaron ends his article with this: “God has preserved His Word in the manner in which He chose and in a form that is sufficient for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.” Perhaps nothing could be more ambiguous as that—no explanation of what God chose or the form that was sufficient. We are to assume that sufficient form was an imperfect form. That’s where Aaron is leaving us. He doesn’t say that, because He can’t show us a verse that teaches it. Whatever the form is, and Aaron doesn’t know, it will be enough for Scripture to be sufficient. Imperfection will be fine with God. That could be the title of Aaron’s piece: Imperfection will be fine with God. We will be sufficiently perfected by means of imperfection, according to Aaron and those like him. I reject that position. And I hope you do too.
Inspiration: How and What?
Does the Bible teach that it is a divinely inspired book? Those who say they believe in so-called “verbal-plenary” inspiration say “yes.” Those who study the Bible in the most scholarly institutions of America are not so sure. Who is right?
Points of Agreement
Nearly all involved in the controversy are agreed that the Bible is inspired in some sense. Nearly all are agreed as well that Scripture teaches divine inspiration, somewhere and in some form, every one of the words of Scripture He inspired.
It is also agreed that the Bible depicts human beings as both finite and fallen and prone to error in what they do, but that God overcame human fallibility in some sense when He inspired “holy men of God” to record some form of Scripture. This is where we come to a major fork in the road. Though we do not have equally direct and clear statements to the effect that God also ensures that there are sixty six divinely inspired books, many believe a compelling case for this kind of inspiration can be derived from passages in certain sixty-six books that many refer to as Scripture or the Bible.
This article aims to examine all of the relevant biblical arguments to see whether we have sufficient grounds for believing God has continuously overcome the limitations of men so that they produce a divinely inspired, word-perfect text of sixty-six books. The goal here is not to argue outside of scripture, but to make myself a kind of blank slate and only judge my view of inspiration from the passages that are referred to by those who believe in a divinely inspired, word-perfect sixty-six book Bible in the original writings, essentially to hold myself to the standard that the word-perfect, sixty-book divine inspirationists say that they hold themselves to.
“All Scripture Is Given by Inspiration of God”
This phrase from 2 Timothy 3:16 has become the proof text for those who believe in word-perfect and divine inspiration of every and all the Words of a sixty-six book Bible. However, upon closer examination, I believe we can show quite clearly how that this is a position that the men who hold to this view are reading into the text based upon their ill-conceived presuppositions. For instance, 2 Timothy 3:16 itself doesn’t teach what the word-perfect divine inspiration men say that it does. They take from this one phrase far more than it says. Here’s how.
The verse starts with “all Scripture.” These are two words in the original Greek, pas graphe. “All writing” or “every writing.” The understanding of graphe is “writing.” The next word is an adjective, translated in the King James Version with several words, “is given by inspiration of God.” It is only one word in the Greek, an adjective, theopneustos, God-breathed. One could understand this terminology several ways—“every God-breathed writing” or “every writing is God-breathed.” It is grammatically correct and many scholars believe that the translation should be: “Every inspired scripture is also profitable.” Seeing that as a possibility does bring some ambiguity to the meaning of this verse from the start. It’s not best to base some doctrine of divine, verbal-plenary inspiration of a sixty-six book Bible on such questionable writing.
The phrase is saying that certain writings are God breathed. Question: Which ones? Nowhere does the Bible in which this phrase appears tell anyone what the writings were that God inspired, that He breathed. And the verse says “writings,” not “words” or “letters.” Especially when we look at the quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament and see that they don’t match up “word for word,” we really have a basis for seeing this as at the most a conceptual type of writing. “Writing” is in a general sense and not in any way specific.
Certainly the verse points a case toward God breathing out writings, but we don’t have a basis for knowing what those writings are. And what certain men say are God-breathed, sixty-six books, they have no basis for knowing that those sixty-six were the ones that God breathed, or that he breathed two chapters or one chapter or five. And then we also know that the men to whom God breathed these writings were affected by the ruination of sin. Nothing in what men call the Bible, these so-called sixty-six books, says anything about whether the men wrote the books down correctly.
Do we know what was inspired and what was not? Nothing in these sixty-six books says anything about that, and all I’m trying to do is determine this based upon what the Bible itself says. And it says nothing about what are the writings and what are not. The sixty-six book Bible has verses in it that refer to books that are not among the sixty-six books. Why are they not included? It would seem that there is a biblical basis for including them, at least if the books in which they are mentioned are considered to be divinely inspired in such a way. When I base my position merely on what the so-called Bible says, I can’t argue for what is inspired and what is not. There is no list included therein.
And then what exactly does this one adjective, found only here in the entire twenty-seven books men refer to as the New Testament, mean? We can’t very well go to other verses to determine it’s meaning. Is it a kind of divine inspiration at the level of William Shakespeare? Everyone has within him a spark of divinity, found in the image of God, that interacts with him in a way for his natural gifts to be used to their greatest extent. We can’t say from this verse what exactly this “inspiration” is all about. Should we not build such a large case on a singular usage of a word? Wouldn’t this word have appeared many more times if it really was so important?
“Holy Men of God Spake As They Were Moved by the Holy Ghost”
In addition to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, here from 2 Peter 1:20-21 is the only other proof text for the apparent doctrine of divine, verbal-plenary inspiration. Just to start, who are the “holy men” and what did they speak? It seems that we start with a lack of information right from the start by which we can make a decision. What came from holy men and what did not? And why were not all the books written by these holy men also part of the Bible? It smacks of subjectivity through and through.
And notice that it says that they “spake.” Was everything that holy men spake, their oral words, actually moved upon by the Holy Spirit. And what was this movement? Many believe that “moved” means “to convey some burden” or “to be carried along.” How does this relate to individual words and written ones at that? It seems that this passage does more harm than good for the cause of something written. It says “spake.” Those are words from someone’s mouth, not something in ink on some physical material, like parchment.
Conclusion
So far, a case for a biblical doctrine of word-perfect, divine inspiration of sixty-six books proves nothing beyond what is generally agreed: that God has given us to a certain degree a message. We don’t know that it is in exact words, we don’t know how many words, which words, or even books, and we don’t know exactly how God went about accomplishing that. At the least, we’ve got to head outside of the Bible to determine how many books should be included in the whole. The Bible itself, as agreed upon the most conservative believers in inspiration, does not tell us how many books should be included. We have no Scriptural basis for determining what is God’s Word and what is not and how exactly God made sure, despite the fallibility of sinful men, that we could even receive it in an untainted condition.
*******************************************
I recognize that many who read the above essay might be experiencing disgust and extreme revulsion. I understand. However, I wanted to argue against verbal-plenary, perfect, divine inspiration in the same manner as those who argue against perfect preservation of Scripture, so that they could get an understanding of what they sound like to us. I think my arguments above are just as good, even better, than what I hear against perfect preservation.
Aaron Blumer, the one whom I answered in my previous post, says he’s taking his teaching only from Scripture. He says he’s only letting Scripture have its say. I would ask him to show me where the Bible says there are sixty-six books and then within those books, and why within those books, why those paragraphs. Scripture might be inspired, but how do we know what is Scripture and what is not? He’s got to make his argument just from Scripture.
As others read my general summary of positions, they may not want to think of what I’ve represented as being inspiration. But shouldn’t they if they are going to be “open minded”? Haven’t I been clear? Anyone who disagrees—should we just admit right now that they are closed minded and attempting to just obfuscate the issue? I think you get the point.
Aaron might think that he has a biblical basis for inspiration, one that we don’t have for preservation. But that’s only based on how you argue the issue. Aaron really does start with a predisposition toward the inspiration of the Bible when he comes to the two inspiration passages. Two. He is able to see them differently than the preservation passages, because he believes in the perfect inspiration of sixty-six books. I contend that the way he argues (and others just like him), what he writes, shows that he starts with a disposition not to believe in perfect preservation. Then he goes about looking at the passages. He’s bound to be looking for arguments to eliminate the doctrine of perfect preservation.
Rock and Rap Music Are Becoming a Non-Issue in Fundamentalism part 2
I’m quite sure that most professing fundamentalists still wouldn’t allow for rock music in their church services. Even if much of fundamentalist worship isn’t acceptable to God, they won’t use rock music at their churches. But I do believe that the relationship to rock music has changed in fundamentalist churches. Before they were sure that the Bible taught that rock music is wrong. Now you hear even some of the most conservative of the fundamentalists say that its difficult to judge whether it’s wrong or not. To many now, it’s just a preference they have, not playing rock music, but they would have a hard time explaining why they shouldn’t allow it. They often sound tentative in their opposition to rock music.
What is the evidence that I see that says that rock music is becoming or already is a non-issue in fundamentalism?
Here’s what I see. Rap music is played at the Together for the Gospel conference and professing fundamentalist men get together with those men at that conference. Some of the music at the same event is played with rock music. Most of the primaries find rock and rap acceptable. They may not like it personally, but most of their churches play it. That’s not a problem for them.
MacArthur isn’t criticized by fundamentalist leaders for the rock music played at his church. The Resolved Conference plays rock music for the young people that come—this is a Grace Community Church conference. That doesn’t stop fundamentalists from fellowshiping with MacArthur and Grace Community Church. You don’t hear this as a criticism coming from major fundamentalist leaders.
You will see at SharperIron, which represents a large segment of young fundamentalism, that there is stronger argumentation for rock music than there is against it. Some of their blogroll don’t have a problem with rock music. They may not like it, but they aren’t against it. Nobody suffers any repercussions for supporting rock music or fellowshipping with it. It’s reasonable now not to have a problem with rock music at SharperIron. SharperIron is much more against the doctrine of perfect preservation than they are against rock music. Anti-perfect preservation is nearly at an essential doctrine with the rock music being a liberty.
You don’t hear fundamentalist leaders writing this: “rock music is evil,” “rock music is wrong,” or “rock music is sinful.” If they say anything at all, you hear or see them saying that it is a non-essential and a liberty issue.
Probably the major voice in fundamentalism against rock music now is Scott Aniol. You know Scott is against rock music. You can tell that Scott is not a favorite among the fundamentalists because of that. He is not respected by many because of how strong he is. And yet, when he talks about rock music, you will not hear him say that rock music is sinful, wrong, or evil. In a sense, I hate to say it because I like Scott’s stand, but he tip toes around the issue. In a recent conversation on his blog, he and a colleague talked about how that cultures should be learning from each other and allowing other cultures to reveal our blindspots.
Promoted fundamentalists are friends with those who listen to and promote rock music. You see Dan Philips, one of the Pyromaniacs, go to a Chicago concert and promote rock music of various forms, secular and “Christian” on his blog. And he gets zero criticism from fundamentalists. None. Chris Anderson of SharperIron and in with fundamentalism and SharperIron, even Bob Jones University, considers him a friend. Rock music doesn’t break friendships with fundamentalists. It’s totally a side issue any more.
Why Is Rock Music Becoming a Non-Issue in Fundamentalism?
First, fundamentalism is being influenced much by conservative evangelicals. This is obvious. They want to fit in with those guys and mostly those guys use rock music in their churches. That’s got to be overlooked.
Second, young fundamentalists listen to Christian rock and even secular rock. Fundamentalists know that. They don’t want to come down too hard. I hear from credible sources that most kids on Christian campus are listening to rock music.
Third, the universal church belief and the consequential belief about unity has ditched rock music as an issue. If all believers are going to get together and most professing believers are using and listening to it, there’s not going to be that unity they think we’re supposed to have. So rock music has become a casualty of Christian unity.
Fourth, the people who do preach against rock music are not respected. Many of them use the King James Version and that is more odious to many fundamentalists than rock music. They would rather have rock music than KJVO. I sense this personally. It’s easy to pick up. The major leaders that themselves don’t like rock music preach all around the issue without actually saying the words “rock music.” Kevin Bauder at Central is one of these. You know he’s against it, but you don’t hear him come right out and say it.
Fifth, fundamentalist churches had already started thinking about the audience, when it came to their choice of music. They weren’t thinking so much about the unchanging nature of God as they were what people liked and what people would feel. Without the right purpose of music to anchor them, they have veered away from the right purpose. Some of that is seen in the influence of Patch the Pirate and certain fundamentalist ‘evangelists’ upon fundamentalist music. To their credit, some fundamentalist leaders, like Bauder and Aniol, understand the similarities between some of the Majesty Music and rock music. It’s harder to oppose the rock, at least for them, when fundamentalists have entertainment oriented music themselves. The trite lyrics and show-tune music of revivalists in the midst of even conservative fundamentalists make fundamentalists seem as guilty. This kind of music has been acceptable in even the Bob Jones University branch of fundamentalism and the relations between those forms and rock music is very close in the minds of a Bauder and Aniol, among some others. If they were going to come down hard on rock music, they likely feel they would need to disparage a huge chunk of those with whom they have the closest affiliations.
There are probably more reasons, but these above are the major ones. I don’t mind being wrong. But I think I’m right here. Rock music has become a non-issue in historic fundamentalism. What do you think this means for the future of fundamentalists?
Two Items of Interest
We have the audio sermons coming on our church website again. You can listen and download both now at the same location. Just click on the sermon to get the download function. However, there is an audio player you can listen to right at the site.
Also I’ve invited Thomas Ross to be a guest columnist any time that he writes something fit for What Is Truth. One article that I’m not going to print here, because I don’t have Hebrew fonts or else I would, is this article that pertains to the King James Version. However, look for Thomas Ross articles here in the future.
Answering the SharperIron Article on Preservation part one
Here is my answer to the Aaron Blumer article on SharperIron, entitled, Preservation: How and What? I say thanks to Aaron, who is also Pastor Blumer of Grace Baptist Church of Boyceville, Wisconsin. I respect him for going at this issue. And I mean no disrespect in saying that he misses it in a big way because he does not represent what has occurred with the doctrine of preservation. And I don’t mean this in a bad manner either, when I say this is a bit like talking to a Catholic about transubstantiation, who hasn’t really interacted with the exegesis. The Catholic thinks transubstantiation really is the original position on the Lord’s Table. I want to use this illustration in one other way. Aaron presents the preservation issue as if there are these two positions on preservation. It is like someone saying there are two positions on the Lord’s Table: transubstantiation and then elements as symbols. Please don’t take this as ad hominem. It isn’t intended at all that way. I believe this an apt parallel though. The one good thing, I would always hope, that is different between those reading this, and even Aaron doing so, and a Catholic, is that the Roman Catholic sees the tradition as authority. You can show him Scripture and he won’t budge. I’ve had those discussions. But we would think that genuine believers would respect the authority of the Bible on a subject and always put that above tradition, feelings, and even science.
Aaron presents two views of preservation. In doing so, he says that both sides believe in preservation of Scripture, and that neither knows what the Bible teaches about the how and the what of preservation. He says that both sides in the end are left with educated guesses about the how and the what. He seems to prefer the second sort of educated guess, which happens to be textual criticism, guesses educated by forensic science in that case. I don’t believe that the second view is preservation of Scripture. It isn’t how the Bible presents it, which I will talk about later. And I don’t think that the first view is a guess at all, any more than we’re guessing when we say that we have sixty-six books of the Bible.
Aaron goes through several preservation texts, which is the right thing to do, to see what the Bible says about its own preservation. He does miss a few good ones. But he concludes in so many words from looking at several references that speak of preservation that God has indeed preserved every one of His Words for people to use. That is a lofty conclusion for many evangelicals and fundamentalists. Many wouldn’t want to be caught saying that. For instance, Daniel Wallace doesn’t believe that Scripture says what Blumer concludes in his article.
The article by Aaron, however, has two major problems. One is that it provides no historical context, and two, the Bible really does say how and what. I’ll explain both.
NO HISTORICAL CONTEXT
The first one, not giving historical context, is what provides the most trouble. The right position is the biblical position, but then it is also the historic position. There is no doubt that what Aaron calls the discrete view is the historic position. You won’t find the other position, what he calls dispersed preservation, until you get to the 19th century. I have long believed that we first go to the Bible to get our doctrine and then we check on history to find out what men believed. If a new position comes on the scene, it should overturn the already established position with some very convincing exegesis of the Bible on the doctrine. We don’t have that with the dispersed view. What originated the “dispersed view” was post-enlightenment rationalism in the form of the “science” of textual criticism. Textual criticism says to look to the external evidence to find out where it leads you, not at all affected by theological presuppositions. That has not been the position of the church. When I have presented the historical doctrine of the church, I have never had anyone deny it was the historic position. When I have argued with some of the most notable men in the field of the text of Scripture, they do not deny that converted men have taken the position that Aaron calls the discrete view.
From what I read, and I have read a lot about this, a vast majority of evangelicals and fundamentalists do not know the history of the doctrine of preservation of Scripture. True believers have always believed the view that I also take. It is the one that Scripture teaches. I think Aaron is referring to that view as discrete preservation. The fact that he gives it his own name seems to surely indicate that he has not interacted with the history of the doctrine. With the emphasis that Kevin Bauder and Central puts on history and scholarship, one would think that the students there would learn the historic view on preservation. I haven’t read anywhere that would lead me to believe that they have. What I do read, that is written by them and their comrades, is that the history of preservation begins in the late 19th century. That’s where we start in their history. That, of course, is also the time that evolution evolved, theological liberalism began to bloom, and what Bauder calls “proto-fundamentalism” got started.
Much of God’s Word in Our Hands and God’s Word Preserved (latter by Michael Sproul), two recent “dispersed position” presentations, quote almost entirely historic fundamentalists to defend their position as historic. I’m afraid that these men really do believe that they have presented the historic position on preservation when they quote mainly fundamentalists (what Sproul calls “our fundamentalist fathers,” I guess to add authority to their words). Any real historian, like Richard Muller, I think, would be amused or even chuckle at the “history” to which these men refer (again I recommend for historic purposes, Muller’s second volume in his Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, titled: Holy Scripture: The Cognitive Foundation of Theology). James White in his King James Version Debate doesn’t even attempt to present the historic doctrine of preservation. Many of these men treat the doctrine of preservation as if it began with the textual critics and found its apex in Bruce Metzger of mid 20th century Princeton.
If anyone is going to say that there are two views, he ought to tell us where those two views came from. He should be required to do that. Usually someone, any scholar, any preacher, must do that. The first view, which Aaron doesn’t represent correctly (I’ll show how later), comes from Scripture and has evidence in the history of Christian doctrine. The second view does not have a historic basis. It started in the 19th century, which, by the way, was also the time that a lot of false theological beliefs were concocted. We should expect that the old position would be overturned by excellent, in-depth exegesis. It wasn’t. We still do not get exegesis as a basis for the critical text or eclectic text position. That’s why there isn’t a major foundational difference between what we hear from James White and Bart Ehrman in the debate. On most of their fundamental points, they agree. Neither of them rely on scriptural presuppositions to come to their views on preservation.
When I ask for a scriptural presentation for the preservation position of those taking this “dispersed preservation” view, they don’t have one. They only have criticism of the “discrete preservation.” And it takes on a scorched earth type of argumentation. They usually try almost every avenue possible to discredit the scriptural and historic position. They did not and do not start with the Bible to come to their own view.
So Aaron presents two views. My problem is that the second one shouldn’t be considered legitimate. It didn’t start with a doctrine of preservation. Aaron Blumer deals with passages of scripture, but the dispersed preservation position itself started with a denunciation of the doctrine of preservation with the idea of overturning the historical position to make room for textual criticism. There is where I find it akin to saying there are two views on the Lord’s Table: transubstantiation and symbolism. There aren’t two views. We shouldn’t exalt transubstantiation by giving it the status of a legitimate position. I say the same about the second position, the “dispersed preservation” view. Roman Catholic dogma has been influenced through the centuries by various external sources of rationalism and mysticism. A return to biblical doctrine for many in Europe in the 16th century was mockingly called fideism by Roman Catholic authority. Romanism considered theirs a groundless faith without the aid of reason that they had embraced. Doctrines like transubstantiation are not fideistic.
Is what I write above true? Yes, it is. Why isn’t there more interaction about this? Not many men will even talk about it. The few that do will attempt to read textual criticism into statements made by Francis Turretin or extrapolate the science of textual criticism into the work of Erasmus. This is not telling the story. It is more scrambling to attempt to explain why they don’t have a history. One would think that men who have truth on their side would be glad to discuss this. They won’t. They certainly do not want to hear that they have a view read into the historic confessions to make room for post-enlightenment rationalism. What I have found is that they simply mock the historical view. And that is acceptable as discussion. They say it is just a silly translation issue for which they have no time. Certain pressures come upon evangelicals and fundamentalists that tie them to an eclectic or critical text and modern versions. And those who believe the biblical and historical position today are marginalized and dismissed in some fashion like believers in a Catholic inquisition.
I will finish this very soon. In the next post I will talk about the problems he has in representing the discrete position. By misrepresenting this view, a strawman is erected. Again, stay tuned.
When A Classification Slanders
In the summer of 2009 at a Bible faculty summit for fundamentalist Bible college and seminary faculties, Jeff Straub read a paper entitled “The Fundamentalist Challenge for the 21st Century: Do We Have a Future?” in which he attempted to classify segments or branches of fundamentalism by assigning characteristics with certain titles for each branch (you can read it here and here). With his essay came a chart he titled, “The Broad Theological Landscape of the 21st Century — A Working Taxonomy,” with contributions from Kevin Bauder, Dan Brown, and Jon Pratt. His three classifications for fundamentalists were Hyper Fundamentalism, New Image Fundamentalism, and Historic Fundamentalism.
What is the purpose of these three classifications for fundamentalists? What I can surmise is that he wants everyone to know that he and his friends represent historic fundamentalism. The paper really is not to establish who is obedient to God and the Bible, but who are the real fundamentalists. Why is this important? Um. I don’t know. I don’t think God cares at all, but this is a big deal to fundamentalists, it seems, because they are regularly speaking in these taxonomies and classifications. It reminds me of what I do every year when I’m doing my taxes and I’m working at aligning myself with the sweetest spot tax-wise for my family and me. These fundamentalists place themselves in the sweet spot and the others outside of it.
Another reason someone like Straub, who has put himself in the Historic Fundamentalist category, would be interested in drawing up these classifications would be to combat some of the work that has been done by the New Image Fundamentalists (which would include several that many are calling “the young fundamentalists) to include the Evangelical Right in the column of Historic Fundamentalism. The New Image guys see an “emerging middle,” as noted by Straub in his chart, that would include conservative evangelicals as fundamentalists. Not only would this allow the young fundamentalists to be a part of the big and famous boys of conservative evangelicalism (Piper, MacArthur, Carson, Dever, Mohler), but it would give them cover for making this move, some sort of fundamentalist legitimacy.
Of course, from my perspective, I wonder why it matters to be a fundamentalist. I’ve been asking this for a long time. Why isn’t it good enough to be a church? Why isn’t Baptist good enough? What about a saint? I don’t consider myself a fundamentalist, so I’m attempting to help out men like Straub, which would allow them to have that term all to themselves. However, in Straub’s classification system, I likely can’t avoid still being a fundamentlist, because I would have to be a Hyper Fundamentalist. This is not a good thing to be on his chart.
So I look at the chart to see who I would be. It is, after all, a Hyper Fundamentalist, that is, what Clarence Sexton, David Cloud, and D. A. Waite are, according to the Straub lay-out. I’m pretty familiar with D. A. Waite and David Cloud and Clarence Sexton. Shouldn’t Jack Schaap be in there too? And Paul Chappell? And Pensacola Christian College? Maybe it would have looked too bad for Cloud and Waite to have lumped those men in there too. So we get the strange bed fellows of Cloud, Waite, and Sexton. I think we all know what has those men in common—the King James Version. Why not just have that column have one thing under it—KJVO—and he would have been done?
But according to the chart, that’s not all that they have in common. And just as a reminder, I’m sure that Straub would be put me in the Hyper Fundamentalist category too. He says that they are strongly anti-calvinist. I don’t know what that is, because I know that historic Baptists, according to John T. Christian’s History of Baptists, have been more Calvinist than Arminian. That doesn’t sound too strongly anti-Calvinist. And doesn’t Clarence Sexton have Ian Paisley there on campus to speak? Doesn’t he associate himself with all things Spurgeon in almost everything that he publishes? Does D. A. Waite push anti-Calvinism? Those are the names that he used.
But the anti-Calvinism is a relatively minor one. Next the Hyper Fundamentalists elevate orthopraxy over orthodoxy. Wow! Maybe Sexton, but not Cloud, and especially not Waite. And as for me, well, I would guess that Central and Straub are more revivalistic than I am, placing more emphasis on pragmatics than I would. Then the chart says that Hyper Fundamentalists over emphasize a separation which is unrelated to church discipline. I know quite a few that he would place in this category would not practice church discipline. Cloud and Waite, two of the three names he mentions, believe in it and practice it. The churches I’m in fellowship with practice it. And we all see our separation relating to church discipline.
Next on the chart for the Hypers is that they separate from other fundamentalists. True. But it’s not like these separatists choose out fundamentalists as some special group. I would think that Cloud and Waite, and I know it is true for me, would separate based on what Scripture said irregardless of whether the person or church thought himself to be a fundamentalist. My experience has been that historic fundamentalist churches will welcome people that we have disciplined from our church based on the passages on church discipline, and they don’t give me so much as a phone call. I’ve also noticed that it comes back to haunt them, but they still have done it nonetheless. I would not do that to them. When I asked one pastor why he did that, he told me it was because I was KJVO. There we go.
Straub and company next include this as a characteristic of the Hypers, which include Cloud and Waite—they use a “mixture of old Gospel and Southern Gospel music, some CCM.” It’s pretty easy to find that Cloud rejects Southern Gospel. He has written and spoken about it extensively—you can get the articles and the DVDs where he has. I would think that Waite, a BJU graduate, does not use Southern Gospel either. That leaves Sexton, which does use Southern Gospel, but the other two are against it.
Then the Hyper Fundamentalists expand the central core of fundamentals beyond the “five,” as well as “extraneous issues — e. g. Bible versions” as a basis for separation. You could just call this practicing what the New Testament teaches on separation. This isn’t a slander against these men, because it might be the one that is the most accurate of all his ‘scholarly’ classifying.
Next is topical preaching. Waite rarely does topical preaching. I preach almost exclusively expository, as do pastors I am friends with. Straub says concerning his group, the historic fundamentalists, “Some good expository preaching.” It’s not only not topical, but it is good expository preaching. I grew up in what Straub calls “historic fundamentalism” and I rarely heard an expository sermon, so it is not entirely historic. Now it is more of an emphasis in churches everywhere. This is not necessarily with thanks to historic fundamentalism, but let us all be glad for this development. However, to across-the-board say that the Hypers do topical preaching isn’t true.
In his group, Straub includes Tim Jordan, Matt Olson, Mark Minnick, David Doran, Kevin Bauder, John Hartog 3, and Chuck Phelps. Those were likely the guys represented at the meeting he was making his presentation. You weren’t going to get too much of a protest from them. Of course they don’t separate too much or too little. They separate just right. Why? Because they are willing to compromise more on the “non-essentials.” We’re supposed to see that makes them better. They may have allowed Uzzah to live.
But I titled this post, “When a Classification Slanders.” To include Cloud and Waite in a presentation that smears them with certain characteristics that they don’t have is slander. No explanation is given. It is just put out there with those inaccuracies for people to assume that these qualities characterize these two men. I’ve tried to give my point of view on Straub’s blog at Central, but they wouldn’t allow it. He’s welcome to come here and tell me how he hasn’t slandered anybody. That’s called “due process,” by the way.(1)
What brings these two together is their support of the KJV—that’s it. So again, the KJV position really is the determining factor here, since half of the other characteristics don’t even describe them. The chart would have been a little boring and sort of thoughtless if it had one point under Hyper Fundamentalists: KJVO. Cloud and Waite are living men, men who are saved. I don’t think Straub is questioning that. But they are men who should not be slandered by him.
(1) I received an email from a source I shall not name who informed me that everyone in the group of “Historic Fundamentalists” he lists were not there. I want everyone to know that. So he was not influenced by their presence. What I was saying was that there is acceptance from the people to whom you are making this presentation. I’m not against some judging of motives, as long as I’m careful with the wording—which I was. I have mentioned in the comment section that he leaves out the New Image Fundamentalists, except for a Stephen Davey with a question mark, so he had the ability to leave people out. If he was really looking for men who represented his qualities of Hyper Fundamentalists, he missed them.
Allegations: Schismatic, a Bad Name, and Arrogance
Pastor Mike Harding, who commented much more nicely on the first post of the Bibliology and Separation series, wrote this at SharperIron on September 23, 2009:
I was reading Kent Brandenburg’s blog about this matter. One of the comments he allowed to be posted compared myself, Doran, and Pratt as using the tactics of the “New Atheists”. Another on his blog said that though they are not Ruckmanites, they preferred Ruckmanism over against the CT as the lesser of two evils. Those kind of comments give Fundamentalism a very bad name. That is the kind of Fundamentalism that Kevin Bauder has been crticial of and rightly so. By the way, the same commentor also condemned MacArthur as a heretic on the Blood. Though I disagree with JM on numerous points, it is not fair to call JM a heretic on the blood. However, so often KJVO types participate in this kind of slander. In my opinion men like that are simply schismatic and I would not have ecclesiastical fellowship with them. Their ignorance is only surpassed by their arrogance.
I’d actually like to have things be civil between Mike Harding and myself. We see a lot of things exactly the same in doctrine and practice, but he doesn’t seem to want as much peace as we can possibly have. In this case he didn’t link to the post with this statement, so no one would get to see the context of the comments to which he was referring. Very ironic is that this paragraph that he wrote at SharperIron actually illustrates what P.S. Ferguson was talking about when he said that they use the tactics of the “New Atheists.” If you saw the “New Atheist” comment in the context, it wouldn’t look so bad. Without the context, it looks like that P. S. may have been calling these men atheists, but here’s the entire quote from P. S.:
Like many of the polemicists on the New Atheist movement, Harding, Doran, Pratt, all assume that caricatures and insinuations trump arguments. It puts me in mind of Cicero’s old dictum, “When you have no case, abuse the plaintiff.”
P. S. was referring to a bunch of abusive statements made by these men (Harding, Pratt, etc.) concerning King James Version advocates. I still love them, and I was pointing out their bad behavior. Harding chooses to pluck the two words, “New Atheism,” out of the context to make it look worse than what it was. I would wonder if Harding is ignorant of the New Atheist movement and the kind of debate these men have used in the glut of new books they’ve written. P. S. was only paralleling the polemical similarities, not the doctrinal ones.
The second comment that Harding made was that someone “said that though they are not Ruckmanites, they preferred Ruckmanism over against the CT as the lesser of two evils.” Everyone should know that no one used the words that Harding said they did. No one defended Ruckman. No one. At best he was referring to a comment made by Gary Webb:
I have been strongly “anti-Ruckmanism” because of the double-inspiration issue [as well as Ruckman’s personal life, ungodly spirit, & crazy doctrines]. However, I have to admit that, concerning the Bible in English, the Ruckmanite position is FAR BETTER than the Critical Text position. The CT position not only undermines the King James but EVERY Bible, including whatever “version du jour” the CT crowd is promoting.
That doesn’t sound like support for Ruckman. Later Joshua added:
[N]o one is supporting Ruckman here. I pointed out earlier that no one touches him or his followers with a ten foot pole. . . . If Gary is advocating supporting Ruckman just because he’s better than Ehrman Ill eat my King James Bible.
Later Webb clarified:
If you are sounding a warning to the effect that I (and perhaps others) would consider Ruckmanism or those that hold it as potential brethren with which to have fellowship, I would find that fairly ridiculous.
It really does seem like Harding is the one that wants to stir things up with his representation of what is said. All that was said was that Ruckman gets far more attacked than someone like Bart Ehrman by fundamentalists and yet Bart Ehrman leaves men with far more doubt in the end about the Word of God. Perhaps Harding can’t apprehend that kind of nuance.
Next Mike made this statement:
By the way, the same commentor also condemned MacArthur as a heretic on the Blood. Though I disagree with JM on numerous points, it is not fair to call JM a heretic on the blood. However, so often KJVO types participate in this kind of slander.
If you scroll down the comments on both articles I wrote on Bibliology and Separation, not one person, not a single one, said that MacArthur was a “heretic” on the blood. None. No one. Scroll down the comments yourself. So Harding tells the whole SharpIron world that I allowed a comment that said that MacArthur was a “heretic on the blood,” and yet no one made that statement. The only person who said anything about MacArthur and heresy was Harding himself. He wrote:
Mac was not and is not heretical on the blood period. Bob Jones Jr. was mistaken on that issue. BJU does not consider Mac heretical on the blood today.
Somehow Harding was thinking of his own comment and that BJU, his alma mater, were the ones that said MacArthur was heretical. P. S. Ferguson said something about MacArthur and the blood issue, but all he said was this:
Despite MacArthur’s deeply disturbing views on the blood of Christ, total lack of biblical separation by preaching with Ecumenists and Charismatics in his ministry, promotion of rank CCM music at his conventions, BJU Board Member, Mike Harding, imperiously dismisses those who oppose MacArthur for their “the total lack of appreciation or honest commendation for men such as John MacArthur by some in our circles.”
P. S. Ferguson said MacArthur’s view on the blood was “deeply disturbing.” That’s it. And then Harding broad brushes “KJVO types” as saying “this type of slander.” A slander is a lie. Mike Harding, no one called MacArthur a “heretic.” You are obviously ignorant of what I believe about heresy, because I’ve never called MacArthur a heretic. You are the only one who brought it up. I too think that MacArthur’s view on the blood is deeply disturbing and I have been very careful in explaining why over at Jackhammer (here and here). I asked Harding whether he believed MacArthur’s views were unscriptural. He said nothing, but then he jumps to calling us “slanderers” based on something that wasn’t even said. Isn’t that slander itself? I’ll let you judge that rather that stooping to the Harding smear of all KJVO people. I really do want to get along with Mike Harding as much as possible, and the way to do that is to interact based on civil discourse.
Of course, Harding ends with a flurry of language, attacking us as schismatics and arrogant and ignorant. I would fly to anywhere in the country and debate Harding on the issue of the text. He should mop up an arrogant ignoramus. I already said I would do that with James White. I would even host him here in California for a debate if he wanted to get some sun in the winter months. We could video record it and have it available for posterity.
In the meantime, I would call on Mike Harding to reconsider what he has said. I think he has some explaining to do. I expect a retraction over at SharperIron. I know that’s what I would do if I were him. And if there is anything that I say that is slanderous, I will be glad to admit it. Until then, I don’t think the “they’re idiots!” kind of argumentation is effective or should be given any kind of credit.
Addendum
I sent a copy of this via email to Mike Harding at the same time I published it so that he could clear up any misrepresentations. He does think that he was mistreated here entirely in the comment section and mainly from P. S. Ferguson. He’s not happy with me that I allowed the comment. He says that he wasn’t going after those that take our view of the KJV, TR, and preservation, but the Ruckman/Riplinger crowd only. And I can appreciate that, but I was making only a very narrow point, that is, that the CT/eclectic side of the issue also uses name-calling as a technique. That was further validated in the SharperIron comment. I’m not even saying that he or Doran are wrong for using that type of language if they believe what they believe. I was just saying that it isn’t an either/or on the style of criticism offered. The CT/eclectic side, especially James White, constantly talk about the KJV side as being the ones guilty of not being nice. That is not an argument either way on this issue, but it is being used that way. I think it is debunked by what we read in the quotes coming from the CT/eclectic side.
I don’t believe I started this. All I did was point some things out that someone else said. P. S. referred to more things that people had said. Actually there has been a lot more said by the eclectic/CT side that is untrue and not very nice. I don’t think that pointing out what we see happening is bad; I think it’s good.
I reread P. S. Ferguson’s comment and it was very strong. I wouldn’t have said it how he said it, especially one or two specific sentences, but the essence of it I agreed with. I see what P. S. is writing to be very much akin to what Peter Masters wrote recently in criticism of the “conservative evangelicals.” He, like me, sees, if any criticism at all, a very soft, civil criticism of MacArthur and his kind, accompanied with hefty portions of praise, but a very strong negativity toward KJV supporters by the non-revivalist fundamentalists. Harding may be targeting the English inspirationists and preservationists, but it reads absolutely broad brush, because delineations between the positions are not made.
Has this been personal? Yes. From both sides. We’ve been combative. People are going to have to sort out what they believe the truth is. I’ve got more to say on this issue as I move on in the Bibliology and Separation series.
Recent Comments