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Four Views On the Spectrum of Evangelicalism: A Book Review

I recently listened on Audible through the book Four Views on the Spectrum of Evangelicalism, contributors Kevin Bauder, R. Albert Mohler Jr., John G. Stackhouse Jr., and Roger E. Olson, series editor Stanley N. Gundry, gen eds. Andrew David Naselli & Collin Hansen (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011).  The four views presented are:

Fundamentalism: Kevin Bauder

Confessional Evangelicalism, R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

Generic Evangelicalism, John G. Stackhouse, Jr.

Postconservative Evangelicalism, Roger E. Olson

When I listen through a book on Audible I usually listen through twice, since it is easier to miss things when listening to a book than it is when reading one.

For most of the book, I was cheering for Kevin Bauder, for reasons which will be clear below.

Let the Wolves In!

Roger Olson’s View

wolves eating sheep Christianity false teachers true false sin

Beginning with the bad people who are fine letting the wolves in: Roger Olson argues that “inerrancy cannot be regarded as necessary to being authentically evangelical.  It is what theologians call adiaphora–a nonessential belief” (pg. 165). What is more, “open theists [are] not heretical” (pg. 185). Evangelicals do not need to believe in penal substitution: “there is no single evangelical theory of the atonement. While the penal substitution theory (that Christ bore the punishment for sins in the place of sinners) may be normal, it could hardly be said to be normative” (pg. 183).  However, fundamentalism is “orthodoxy gone cultic” (pg. 67).  Deny Christ died in your place, think God doesn’t know the future perfectly, and think the Bible is full of errors? No problem. Let a Oneness Pentecostal, anti-Trinitarian “church” in to the National Association of Evangelicals (pg. 178)? Great!  Be a fundamentalist?  Your are cultic.

Summary: While Christ says His sheep hear His voice, and Scripture unambiguously teaches its infallible and inerrant inspiration (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:16-21) as the Word of the God who cannot lie, and penal substitution is at the heart of the gospel, Dr. Olson thinks one can deny these things and not only be a Christian but be an evangelical.  Let in the heretics and the wolves!

Let Some of the Wolves In!

John Stackhouse’s View

angry wolf snarling teeth showing false teachers Christianity true false

John G. Stackhouse, Jr. is only slightly more conservative than Dr. Olson.  For Dr. Stackhouse, “open theists are, to my knowledge, genuine evangelicals” (pg. 132).  No! But at least anti-Trinitarian Oneness Pentecostals who have a false god, a false gospel, and are going to hell are not evangelicals (pg. 204).  Does something so obvious even deserve a “Yay”?

What about penal substitution? “substitutionary atonement is a nonnegotiable part of the Christian understanding of salvation, and evangelicals do well to keep teaching it clearly and enthusiastically” (pg. 136).  One cheer for Dr. Stackhouse.  But then he goes on:

But suppose somebody doesn’t teach it? Does that make him or her not an evangelical? According to the definition I have been using, such a person might well still be an evangelical. Indeed, the discussion in this section takes for granted that some (genuine) evangelicals are uneasy about substitutionary atonement, and a few even hostile to that idea. But they remain evangelicals nonetheless: still putting Christ and the cross in the center, still drawing from Scripture and testing everything by it, still concerned for sound and thorough conversion, still active in working with God in his mission, and still cooperating with evangelicals of other stripes. Evangelicals who diminish or dismiss substitutionary atonement seem to me to be in the same camp as my evangelical brothers and sisters who espouse open theism: truly evangelicals, and truly wrong about something important. (pgs. 136-137)

So the one cheer quickly is replaced by gasps for air and a shocked silence, as the heretics and the wolves come right back in again.  Dr. Bauder does a good job responding to and demolishing these justifications of apostasy and false religion.

Write Thoughtful Essays Showing that the Wolves Need Critique, but

Let the World and the Flesh In and Don’t Be A Fundamentalist Separatist:

Al Mohler’s View

mega church rocking out smoke electrical guitars hands in air worldly fleshly devilish

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. calls his view “Confessional Evangelicalism,” although he never cites any Baptist or any other confession of faith in his essay.  He thinks you do actually need to believe Christ died in your place, open theism is unacceptable, and an inerrant Bible is something worth standing for (1.5 cheers for Dr. Mohler, led by very immodestly dressed Southern Baptist cheerleaders who know that God made them male and female, not trans). However, Dr. Mohler does not believe in anything close to a Biblical doctrine of ecclesiastical separation.  His Southern Baptist denomination is full of leaven that is corrupting the whole lump.  His ecclesiastical polity is like the Biden administration on the USA’s southern border–claiming that there are a few barriers that keep out people who are trying to creep in unawares while millions of illegals come pouring in with a nod and a wink.

Dr. Bauder makes some legitimate criticisms of Dr. Mohler, while also being much more cozy with him than John the Baptist or the Apostles would have been. Dr. Bauder says that Mohler is “doing a good work, and that work would be hindered if I were to lend credibility to the accusation that he is a fundamentalist” (pg. 97).  That is Bauder’s view of the false worship, the huge number of unregenerate church members, the spiritual deadness, the doctrinal confusion, and the gross disobedience in the Southern Baptist Convention. Hurray?  Dr. Bauder’s discussion is not how the first century churches would have worked with disboedient brethren (2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14).

Separate From the Wolves, but Not From Disobedient Sheep:

Kevin Bauder’s “Mainstream Fundamentalist” View

Modern Bible versions NIV NASB Living REB Message Good News NJB KJV

Kevin Bauder is a self-identified “historic fundamentalist.”  (But what if there never was a unified “historic fundamentalism”?)  He is the only one of the four contributors who actually thinks that ecclesiastical separation needs to take place.  So two cheers for Dr. Bauder!  Bauder argues:  “the gospel is the essential ground of all genuinely Christian unity. Where the gospel is denied, no such unity exists” (pg. 23).  Therefore, “Profession of the gospel is the minimum requirement for visible Christian fellowship. The gospel is the boundary of Christian fellowship” (pg. 25).  Bauder does a good job showing that people must separate from those who deny the gospel, or those who fellowship with those who deny the gospel.  Two more cheers for Bauder.

However, Bauder warns about what he calls “hyper-fundamentalism,” which is actually Biblically consistent separatism (and which gets no voice to defend itself in this book).  He has strong words for the “hyper-fundamentalists”–stronger than the way he voices his disagreements with Mohler:

One version of fundamentalism goes well beyond the idea that I summarized earlier in this essay. It could be called hyper-fundamentalism. Hyper-fundamentalism exists in a variety of forms. … [H]yper-fundamentalists sometimes adopt a militant stance regarding some extrabiblical or even antibiblical teaching. For example, many professing fundamentalists are committed to a theory of textual preservation and biblical translation that leaves the King James Version as the only acceptable English Bible. When individuals become militant over such nonbiblical teachings, they cross the line into hyper-fundamentalism. … [H]yper-fundamentalists understand separation in terms of guilt by association. To associate with someone who holds any error constitutes an endorsement of that error. Persons who hold error are objects of separation, and so are persons who associate with them. … [H]yper-fundamentalists sometimes turn nonessentials into tests of fundamentalism. For example, some hyper-fundamentalists assume that only Baptists should be recognized as fundamentalists. Others make the same assumption about dispensationalists, defining covenant theologians out of fundamentalism. Others elevate extrabiblical personal practices. One’s fundamentalist standing may be judged by such criteria as hair length, musical preferences, and whether one allows women to wear trousers. … Hyper-fundamentalism takes many forms, including some that I have not listed. Nevertheless, these are the forms that are most frequently encountered. When a version of fundamentalism bears one or more of these marks, it should be viewed as hyper-fundamentalist. It is worth noting that several of these marks can also be found in other versions of evangelicalism.

Hyper-fundamentalism is not fundamentalism. It is as a parasite on the fundamentalist movement. … Mainstream fundamentalists find themselves in a changing situation. One factor is that what was once the mainstream may no longer be the majority within self-identified fundamentalism. A growing proportion is composed of hyper-fundamentalists, who add something to the gospel as the boundary of minimal Christian fellowship. If the idea of fundamentalism is correct, then this error is as bad as dethroning the gospel from its position as the boundary.

Another factor is that some evangelicals have implemented aspects of the idea of fundamentalism, perhaps without realizing it. For example, both Wayne Grudem and Albert Mohler (among others) have authored essays that reverberate with fundamentalist ideas. More than that, they and other conservative evangelicals have put their ideas into action, seeking doctrinal boundaries in the Evangelical Theological Society and purging Southern Baptist institutions.

Mainstream fundamentalists are coming to the conclusion that they must distance themselves from hyper-fundamentalists, and they are displaying a new openness to conversation and even some cooperation with conservative evangelicals. Younger fundamentalists in particular are sensitive to the inconsistency of limiting fellowship to their left but not to their right. (pgs. 43-45)

By Bauder’s definition, the first century churches would have been “hyper-fundamentalist” parasites.  (Note that Bauder also makes claims such as:  “Some hyper-fundamentalists view education as detrimental to spiritual well-being” [pg. 44].  There is probably a guy named John somewhere in a “hyper-fundamentalist” church that thinks education is a sin, and there is also probably a lady named Mary in a neo-evangelical church who thinks the same thing, and a big burly fellow named Mat in a post-conservative church who agrees with them, but nothing further about these sorts of claims by Bauder needs further comment.  So we return to something more serious.)  Do you separate over more than just the gospel?  Do you, for example, separate over men who refuse to work and care for their families (2 Thess 3:6-14)?  You are a parasite, just as bad, if not worse, than people who do not separate at all.  Do you separate over false worship (“musical styles” to Bauder), since God burned people up for offering Him strange fire (Lev 10:1ff)?  You are bad–very, very bad.  Let the strange fire right in to the New Testament holy of holies (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)!–even though God says He will “destroy” those who do such a wicked thing.  Do you take a stand for the perfect preservation of Scripture–as did men like George S. Bishop, one of the contributors to The Fundamentals (see, e. g., George S. Bishop, The Fundamentals: “The Testimony of the Scriptures to Themselves,” vol. 2:4 [Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2005], 80ff.)? You King James Only parasite!  Do you seek to follow the Apostle Paul and the godly preacher Timothy, and allow “no other doctrine” in the church–not just “no other gospel,” but “no other doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3)?  Do you repudiate Dr. Bauder’s schema of levels of fellowship to seek what Scripture defines as unity: “that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Corinthians 1:10)?  You are bad–very, very bad.  You should be rejected, and we should join hands, instead, with evangelicals like Mohler who write essays that we “reverberate” with while they work in a Southern Baptist Convention teeming with unregenerate preachers and church members which almost never obeys Matthew 18:15-20 and practices church discipline.  If you think Scripture is not kidding when it says men with long hair or women with short hair is a “shame” (1 Corinthians 11:1-16), or you do not want the women in your church to be an “abomination” (Deuteronomy 22:5) by wearing men’s clothing like pants, then you are certainly, certainly beyond the pale.  Corruptions in our culture do not matter-let them into what should be Christ’s pure bride! Everyone knows that the loving thing to do is to allow half the congregation to be an abomination so that they can fit in with our worldly, hell-bound culture.

Dr. Bauder at least says one should separate over the gospel, and he does a good job proving that Scripture requires churches to do that.  He has numbers of effective critiques of positions to his left.  He clearly has studied history and is a thinker.  But he does not present a Biblical case for consistent separatism-very possibly because consistent ecclesiastical separation is only possible when one rejects universal “church” ecclesiology for local-only or Landmark Baptist ecclesiology, and views the local assembly as the locus for organizational unity, while Bauder believes in a universal “church” and must somehow accomodate Scripture’s commands for unity in the body of Christ to that non-extant entity.  As the book A Pure Church: A Biblical Theology of Ecclesiastical Separation demonstrates, churches must separate from all unrepentant and continuing disobedience, not just separate over the gospel.  Dr. Bauder’s view is insufficient.  Furthermore, his critique of what he labels “hyper-fundamentalism” is inconsistent.  If the “hyper-fundamentalists” do things like separate too much and take stands for pure worship, are they thereby denying the gospel?  If not, why does Bauder think they should be repudiated and separated from?

One other important point: some of those who would repudiate Dr. Bauder’s view as too weak are themselves to his left, not his right.  For example, the King James Bible Research Council and the Dean Burgon Society, prominent King James Only advocacy organizations that would claim to be militant fundamentalists, are willing to fellowship with anti-repentance, anti-Lordship, anti-Christ (for does not “Christ” mean “the Messiah, the King, the Lord”?) advocates of heresy on the gospel as advocated by Jack Hyles, Curtis Hudson and the Sword of the Lord, and the so-called “free grace” movement of Zane Hodges.  Fundamentalist schools that stand for gender-distinction and conservative worship, such as Baptist College of Ministry in Menomonee Falls, WI, are willing to fellowship with people who believe the truth on repentance and the gospel as well as with anti-repentance heretics at Hyles Anderson College and First Baptist (?) Church (?) of Hammond, Indiana like John Wilkerson.  If you think Kevin Bauder’s Central Baptist Seminary is too weak, but you yourself do not separate even over the gospel, but tolerate false views of repentance or other heresies on the gospel that Paul would not have tolerated for one hour (Galatians 1:6-9, 2:5), you need to reconsider your position.

Take a stand–follow God.  Allow “no other doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3). Separate not just on the gospel, but from all unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11).  You may be excluded from the book Four Views on the Spectrum of Evangelicalism, with its more liberal contributors viewing you as “cultic” and the most conservative contributor viewing you as a “parasite” and a “hyper-fundamentalist,” but that is fine-God your adopted Father, Christ your gracious Redeemer, and the blessed Holy Spirit, who has made your body and your congregation into His holy temple, will be pleased.  The needy sheep in your flock who had a faithful pastor will embrace you and thank you as they shine like the sun in the coming glorious kingdom, as you led them to faithfulness to Christ and a full reward, instead of compromise.  If Christ does not return first, your church may, by God’s grace, continue to pass on the truth and to multiply other true churches for centuries, instead of falling into apostasy because of a sinful failure to consistently practice Biblical separation.

Get off the spectrum of evangelicalism entirely and follow Scripture alone for the glory of God alone in a separatist, Bible-believing and practicing Baptist church.  You will be opposed now, but God will be glorified, and it will be worth it all, when we see Jesus.

TDR

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Changes in Personal Belief and the Effects on Relationships (part one)

Growth and Change

No one comes into this world knowing every doctrine of scripture.  For someone to grow in grace and knowledge, he will change in his personal belief.  He could go either way, better or worse.  A person won’t remain static.  Growth requires making good changes and avoiding bad ones.

Like anyone else, I have a story of change in personal belief.  I have often told people that I changed on eight to ten biblical doctrines or issues of various significance through the years.  No one should change from something right to something wrong.  I always believed I was moving from wrong to right, but not everyone agreed with that.

Adding and Subtracting

God says, don’t take away from or add to scripture.  Both directions are bad, subtracting and adding.  Furthermore, someone doesn’t do better if he takes every doctrine or issue to the most strict or extreme place that he could.

In the Garden of Eden, Eve said the following in Genesis 3:2-3 to the serpent:

We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

God had said the following in Genesis 2:17:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When you read the two statements, you can see that Eve added to what God said.  God said nothing about touching the fruit of the tree.  Yet, Eve did.  She took an even more extreme position than God, which was wrong.

Almost every change I ever made in belief or practice, I moved in a stronger, more strict or conservative direction.  Certain other Christians opposed some of those changes.  In a most recent change, that developed over a number of years, I loosened in my belief or practice.  I see liberty on something where I once saw regulation.  Those accustomed to my rightward movement saw this as inconsistent.

Precipitating Change

In every instance I changed, some event precipitated the change.  Very often I changed while preaching or teaching a series through a particular book.  Sometimes I was faced with a situation that I had never encountered.  I had to make a decision.

In all my years of pastoring, that I know, I have never believed and practiced in an identical way with any other church.  I know of no Baptist church that is identical to another in its belief and practice.   Beliefs and practices might be close to the same, but with slight variation.

Here at this blog, Thomas Ross and I don’t believe or practice exactly the same.  We have differences.  We’re very close, but not the same.  Some of you readers have read our debates here and elsewhere.  Nonetheless, we still partner on this blog.

Through the years, our church still fellowshipped with other churches even with the differences we had.  It’s usually not easy to clash with another church on doctrinal and practical differences.  Even interpretational differences might bring conflict between believers or churches.  Almost everyone thinks they’re right.

Reasons for Change and Differences

When I change, why believe or practice different than before?  Why do Bible believing and practicing churches still have some differences with each other in doctrine and practice?

Direct Statements, Plain Inferences

Differences in belief and practice start with variated understanding of either direct statements of scripture or of the plain inferences from direct statements in the Bible.  Not every teaching of the Bible comes from a direct statement.  Some comes from a combination of direct statements and plain inferences.  In general I haven’t changed in my adult life on anything in a category of direct statements or plain inferences from scripture.

When I say direct statements and plain inferences, I also say that these proceed from only a grammatical, historical interpretation of scripture.  Direct statements and plain inferences come from the actual meaning of the words of scripture in their context.  I also consider the laws for the usage of those words, their syntax, and their meaning in their textual and historical context.

I take a stronger position on repentance and Lordship than I did forty years ago.  In the past, I never denied that teaching.  However, like every other doctrine and practice proceeding from direct statement and plain inference from direct statements, I grew in my grasp and conviction.

A Series of Overlapping Statements and Inferences

Some doctrines and practices proceed from a series of overlapping statements and inferences in the Bible.  When you read all of the passages combined, you will come to certain conclusions that are also your beliefs and practices.  The nation Israel, one third of its total number of people according to Zechariah, will receive Christ as the Messiah during the seven year tribulation period.  Nations will surround her and at this juncture, Israel will repent with a confession such as Isaiah 53.  God will save Israel.

I get my belief about the event of the salvation of Israel from conclusions arising from a series of overlapping statements and inferences in scripture.  Furthermore, almost every belief and practice, comes from both the interpretation and the application of scripture.  Application almost always depends on the reality of certain self-evident truths, assumed by God.  God expects us to apply what He said.  Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Separating Differences

Many professing believers take what I call, unscriptural positions.  Differences occur between believers and churches when one or more veer away from the teaching of the Bible.  They might do that for many reasons.  Some of them are just personal.  An individual believer or a church leader may have a personal issue with someone.  People might not like the way someone treated them or others with whom they fellowship.

Differences between churches may not be doctrinal or practical, but personal or political.  They fellowship with others with different doctrine or practice, even with the same differences as someone with whom they won’t.  Their decisions about relationship relate to hurt feelings or bruised egos.  They won’t reconcile, forgive, or seek mediation because of pride.  They wait for the other party to initiate reconciliation, and even if it does, they reject reconciliation or mediation.  True churches separate, but scripture teaches constructive reasons, not personal or political ones.

More to Come

James White / Thomas Ross Debate Review Videos

There have been a number of debate reviews of the James White vs. Thomas Ross debate on the topic:

“The Legacy Standard Bible, as a representative of modern English translations based upon the UBS/NA text, is superior to the KJV, as a representative of TR-based Bible translations.”

James White Thomas Ross King James Bible Legacy Standard Bible debate Textus Receptus Nestle Aland

You can watch the debate itself here on the What is Truth? blog, on my website, on Rumble, or on YouTube.  If you did watch it, you can also examine some of the review videos.  I intend to produce, Lord willing, a series of videos that carefully examine the entire debate.  To this point, I have two debate review videos live (one made before the debate was live, and a second one, just produced, that begins to examine James White’s opening presentation).

Thomas Ross: Debate Review and Analysis part #1:

Pre-debate Review Video of James White & His Claims

 


Watch the debate review part #1 on Rumble

Watch the debate review part #1 on YouTube

In this initial debate review, I provide my thoughts on how the debate went and respond to James White’s claims about the debate in his Dividing Line program of February 21, 2023, c. minutes 5-18, entitled “Road Trip Dividing Line: Gay Mirage, Mass, Biblicism.”

 

Debate Review and Analysis part #2: James White & His Opening Presentation, part 1: Would the King James Version Translators have Preferred the Legacy Standard Bible and the Nestle-Aland Greek Text to the KJV and the Textus Receptus?

Watch the debate review part #2 on Rumble

Watch the debate review part #2 on YouTube

I now have twelve of these debate review videos.  You can watch them all at faithsaves.net, on YouTube, or on Rumble.  At least at this point I have not added the ten after the first two to this post to prevent the post from getting overwhelming.  Please think about subscribing to my YouTube and Rumble channels to find out when new video reviews come out, as I intend to record some more debate review videos, Lord willing.

 

James White (Apologia Church): His Own Debate Comments in the Dividing Line

If you would like to hear what James White said about the debate afterwards, watch minutes 5-18 of his February 21, 2023 Dividing Line program.

 

Jeff Riddle: Reformed Baptist and Confessional Bibliology Advocate’s Debate Review

 

Dr. Jeff Riddle has produced some helpful post-debate reviews. You can watch part 1, part 2, part 3, and part 4 on YouTube, or watch them on the embedded links below.  I appreciate what Dr. Riddle has written on what he calls Confessional Bibliology.  Dr. Riddle rightly wants to distance himself (as do most people who are happy to call themselves King James Only) from extremists like Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger while recognizing the difference between the way the original language text is inspired as to its words and translations are God’s Word as to their substance (what he calls the principle of Authoritas Divina Duplex, if you want a little Latin).  Whatever you wish to call it, I appreciate his perspective on this issue of Bibliology, although Scripture does not teach TULIP Calvinism (and it also certainly does not teach Arminianism).

Jeff Riddle Debate Review Part 1:

 

Jeff Riddle debate review part 2:

Jeff Riddle debate review part 3:

Jeff Riddle debate review part 4:

 

There is a written debate review here on What is Truth? by Dr. Kent Brandenburg: “The White-Ross Debate: Who Won?” as well as some follow-up posts by Dr. Brandenburg (follow-up part 1; part 2; part 3).

There are also some debate reviews by a gentleman named Nick Sayers, who has a website called Textus Receptus.  I know less about his doctrinal position than I do about Dr. Riddle.  Mr. Sayers belongs to a religious organization called “Revolution Church.” He made seven extremely long debate review videos (part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6, part 7).  A large percentage of what he points out is useful, although I would disagree with him at a minority of points.  Everyone should repent and believe the gospel, and then be immersed into a Baptist Church, not a Revolution church.

 

I am not aware of any of the disciples of James White making any review videos dealing in detail with the substance of the debate.  The best I could locate was a five-minute review by one of James White’s disciples named “Polite Leader.” Polite Leader completely ignored the fact that the Nestle-Aland text is a patchwork and many of the other extreme problems with the text White is defending, but I suppose one can only say so much in a video that short, and so putting in what he believed were James’ best points would be important, from his viewpoint.

 

Thanks again for your prayers for God’s truth and for me during the debate.  To Him alone be the glory for the good for His kingdom that was accomplished by it, and to me alone be the blame for what I should have done better.

 

TDR

James White / Thomas Ross Bible Version Debate (KJV vs LSB) is Now Live!

I am happy to report that you can now watch the James White / Thomas Ross debate on Bible versions (the King James Version Only debate)!  The topic was:

 

“The Legacy Standard Bible, as a representative of modern English translations based upon the UBS/NA text, is superior to the KJV, as a representative of TR-based Bible translations.”

 

James White was in the affirmative.

Thomas Ross was in the negative.

 

The debate can now be viewed on the following sites (click for your choice): FaithSaves   Rumble   YouTube

 

It can also be watched using the embedded video below:

Please “like” the video on YouTube and Rumble and share comments about it on those websites as well as on the blog here.

 

I am thankful for the work put in by the follower of James White who edited the video.  I would like to have a somewhat improved version where one can see both the debaters and the slides at the same time, instead of only one or the other, and if that project gets completed, we will definitely plan to inform the blog readership about it.

 

May the truth of the perfect preservation of His infallible Word be more widely received as a result of this debate.  Soli Deo Gloria!

 

Please also read the James White / Thomas Ross Bible Version debate review, part 1, here (with more to come) or watch the video on FaithSaves, Rumble or YouTube.  Lord willing, there are more parts to come reviewing the debate and its arguments.

TDR

James White / Thomas Ross Debate Review Video #1

After my debate with James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, James posted his post-debate thoughts. (I have also written a few thoughts.)  I was quite surprised to hear him make affirmations about my character such as that he “knew” I was “not intending to” bring the audience along with me, that I had a “really, really deep disrespect for the audience,” that “Ross didn’t care. He wasn’t debating for us,” that I did not understand what a text type was, or even “anything like that at all,” and so on, rather than expositing Scripture on its own preservation or demonstrating that even one quotation in my presentation, or one fact I pointed out, was inaccurate.  I believe that the fact that he spent his post-debate analysis attacking me instead of dealing with my arguments may tell you something about how the debate went–I was very thankful for the blessing of the Lord in the debate itself for the cause of God’s truth.  (Let me just add that not one of the thoughts James claims that he “knew” about my motives and so on, to my recollection, even entered my mind one time before I heard him make them in his post-debate analysis.)

 

The debate video itself, Lord willing, will be live soon; it takes a lot more work to get a video like that done than it does to create a video where I am just ruminating about the debate.  Feel free to subscribe to my Rumble and YouTube channels to get notified as soon as the video becomes available.

 

You can watch my initial post-debate response, giving my thoughts on how it went, as well as responding to James White’s allegations, with the embedded video below, at faithsaves.net, on Rumble, or on YouTube.

 

My sincere thanks again to those who prayed for me and for those who helped in many other ways.

TDR

 

Trail of Blood and Landmarkism

Part One

Men use the terms “Trail of Blood” and “Landmarkism” as a kind of mockery, almost never with evidence.  They use them in the same manner as calling someone a “Flat Earther.”  If I said I was “Trail of Blood” and “Landmark,” what would I mean?  Should I embrace those terms in light of potential derision?

Trail of Blood

“Trail of Blood” refers to a booklet written by James Milton Carroll in 1931.  Carroll did not originate the words “trail of blood” as referring to the persecution of churches.  Others before used “trail of blood” to describe the ongoing record of atrocities of Roman Catholicism through the centuries in its opposition to the truth.  I like the metaphor of Carroll, which is saying that you can detect true churches in the historical record through findings of state church persecution.

Carroll would say that the trail of blood started with the Lord Jesus Christ and that suffering marks the trajectory of true churches.  I use this exact language all the time, “There have always been true churches separate from the state church.”  I also ask this question, “Do you believe the truth was preserved in and through Roman Catholicism?”  Men find it difficult to answer “yes” to that question.  If they answer, “No,” then they essentially take a Trail of Blood position.  I say, “Well, then we take the same position, don’t we?”

Whitsitt Controversy and English Separatism

Opposition to the Trail of Blood started with a liberal president of the Southern Baptist Convention, William Whitsitt (read here, here, here, and here).  The work of Whitsitt is less famous than Carroll’s Trail of Blood, but if someone does not accept the Trail of Blood, his other option is called, “English Separatism.”  Can we mock someone as “English Separatist”?  The Trail of Blood position predates the English Separatist one.  If someone rejects Trail of Blood, he is left with the Roman Catholic position on church perpetuity or succession.  He denies the promise of Jesus, “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

Whitsitt took from his European training a modernistic view of truth.  He wrote and said that if it does not have primary source historical evidence, it isn’t true.  From this, Whitsitt said that the earliest Baptist churches trace from 1610 in England.

A split occurred in the Southern Baptist Convention over Whitsitt.  The Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary under the presidency of B. H. Carroll started in a major way because of the Whitsitt controversy.  Most Southern Baptists then distinguished themselves from Protestants.  Carroll’s brother wrote Trail of Blood.

The Application of Modernistic Historicism

Did you know a historical gap exists between the completion of the New Testament and the doctrine of justification?  With that historical position, justification did not exist until after the Protestant Reformation.  No primary source evidence exists for the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.  I’ve been to Bethlehem in the Palestinian West Bank area, and the best historical evidence outside of scripture for Jesus’ birth is secondary and vague.  It starts around 325 with Constantine’s mother Helena visiting there.

The mockery designated for Trail of Blood reminds me of the mockery by scientists of a God Hypothesis and intelligent design.  Trail of Blood is true, but it is institutionally inconvenient.  Intelligent design or a God Hypothesis puts people out of business.  Trail of Blood is a strict ecclesiological position that undermines free-floating free agents, who function outside of church authority, like for instance, Alpha and Omega ministries.  “Ministries” function outside of a church, not something we read in the Bible, and cross denominational lines on a regular basis.

Landmarkism

The attack on Landmarkism dovetails with the one on Trail of Blood.  Landmarkism did not originate local-only ecclesiology.  The Landmark movement began in the Southern Baptist Convention because of an ecumenical drift in the Convention.  Modernism began affecting the Convention.  Compromise grew.  Baptist churches began allowing Presbyterians in their pulpit and accepted their “baptism” for transfer of church membership.  The Landmarkers stood against this.

The Landmarkers believed local-only ecclesiology like most of the Southern Baptists in the middle 19th century, but they stressed and influenced a stronger practice.  They rejected what they called, “alien immersion,” baptism without proper authority.  They were saying, “Don’t accept Presbyterian baptism,” or any other Protestant baptism.  The Protestants arose from Roman Catholicism with a continuation of state church doctrine.  Baptist churches should reject their baptism, Landmarkers claimed, practiced, and encouraged all Baptists to join that.

Many today define Landmarkism with a giant falsehood.  They say Landmarkism is chain-link succession of Baptist churches.  Furthermore, they say that Landmarkism requires proof of a chain-link succession of Baptist churches all the way to the Jerusalem church.  That is not what Landmarkism is.

In a more simple way, you should understand Landmarksim as, first, since Christ, true New Testament churches always existed separate from the state church.  Second, churches start churches.  Third, baptism requires a proper administrator.  Authority is a matter of faith, but scripture recognizes the importance of it.  It does not proceed from Roman Catholicism, so it also does not come from Protestantism.

Authority isn’t arbitrary.  It is real and it is somewhere.  We should not eliminate it.  This arises from the rebellion of men’s hearts.  Men don’t want authority, especially church authority.  I see this as the primary cause of the controversy over Landmarkism and the Trail of Blood.

My Initial Thoughts on The James White Debate (KJV/TR vs. LSB/NA/UBS)

I am thankful for everyone who prayed for me in the debate with James White over the topic:

“The Legacy Standard Bible, as a representative of modern English translations based upon the UBS/NA text, is superior to the KJV, as a representative of TR-based Bible translations.”

 

Thank you!

 

I believe that, for His glory and by His grace, the Lord answered the prayers of His people and the debate went well.  God is concerned that His pure Word be in use among His people, and I believe He blessed the debate towards the furtherance of that cause.

 

Thank you as well to everyone who helped with all kinds of details, small and great, with the debate.  Without you it would the case for the truth of the perfect preservation of Scripture would have been much less effectively presented.  Thank you very much!

 

We arrived in Tennessee the day before the debate.  Our flights were fine on the way out, and on the way back (although THE PLANE WENT DOWN!!!   -but only when it got to the runway at the airport).  My wife and I had dinner with James White the night before the debate and had a cordial conversation.

 

We are thankful for the help of a godly KJVO Baptist in the area who helped us with things from making sure that we would be able to project slides (something was worked out with the pastor at the Reformed Baptist congregation where the debate was being held) to a way to print our notes (the church had no printer available, nor any WiFi there for me to even have my notes on an IPad–that is why it was not livestreamed.) It was recorded by a professional videographer, so it should be high quality once it comes out, Lord willing.  Please pray for the production of the video, as there have been some issues there that are quite important and could seriously impact its effectiveness.

 

The people at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church of Tullahoma, TN were kind to us.  The pastor, who makes a living rebinding Bibles, presented us with a beautifully bound KJV Bible (he gave a similarly beautifully bound LSB to James White).  So if you need you need a Bible rebound, he may be worth considering for you.

 

James White was not quite as cordial in the debate as he had been at dinner the night before, in my opinion, but I suppose I will let you decide that when you watch the debate video.  I was particularly struck by the fact that, despite pressing him on it, and the obvious fact that Biblical promises of perfect preservation, and the recognition of the canonical words of Scripture by the church were crucial to my case, he still did very little to dispute my case from Scripture, nor to present a Biblical basis for his own position.  I am still not sure if he thinks there are any promises from the Bible that indicate that God would preserve every Word He inspired, or if he just thinks that we have them, or almost all of them, somewhere, because of what textual critics like Kurt Aland say, or at least according to him they say, although his view of Kurt Aland may not be Kurt Aland’s view of Kurt Aland.

 

Overall, I think that the debate went well, and that the case for perfect preservation, and its necessary consequence of the superiority of the TR/KJV to the UBS/LSB, was clear. However, I am also well aware that I am biased in favor of my position, so you will have to watch the debate yourself to see if you agree.

 

The slides we had prepared–many of which were used in the debate, while others were not–are available at the main debate page here if you want to get a sense of what my argument was or what is going to be on the debate video, Lord willing.  I asked Dr. White if he wished to put his slides up there as well so that both of our presentations had an equal representation, but he has not responded to me as of now, whether because he is very busy or for some other reason.

 

There is much more that can be said about the debate, but that will be enough for now.  Thank you again for your prayers, and all the glory to the one God, the Father who gave the canonical words of Scripture to the Son, so that He could give them to the assembly of His saints by His Spirit.

 

TDR

Men Seek Signs and Wisdom, But God Saves by the Foolishness of Preaching the Gospel

1 Corinthians 1:18-32:  The Foolishness of Preaching

In 1 Corinthians 1, Paul said God uses the foolishness of preaching to save.  God saves people through the foolishness of preaching.  Paul started out this section in verse 18 by saying that “the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.”

It’s not that the cross is foolishness or that preaching is foolishness.  People think it is foolishness and Paul is saying, “That thing they think is foolishness; that’s what God uses to save.”  God uses a means that does not make sense.  Because people think the gospel is foolishness, they become offended from it.

Of all the offenses of the gospel, Paul gives at least two.  (1)  The Cross, and (2)  Preaching.  The cross is offensive.  It is this way also in at least two ways.  (1)  Someone on a cross needs saving.  Saving comes by a powerful means.  (2)  The cross would be to say that Jesus is the Savior or the Messiah.  I’m not going to write about that in this post.  Instead, preaching.

Rather Signs or Wisdom

Paul in essence asks, “Why use preaching when Jews seek after signs and Greeks after wisdom?” (1 Cor 1:22)  He divides all men into these two different methodological categories.  Jews and Greeks need signs and wisdom, not preaching.  In my thirty-five plus years of ministry, I agree that every audience of ministry breaks down into those two general categories.

When you think of signs and wisdom, that might seem like two items people should like and want.  They are two biblical words.  In a very technical sense, a sign is a miracle.  Almost exclusively, I think someone should view a miracle as a sign gift.  I will get back to that.

Wisdom.  Isn’t Proverbs about wisdom?  We pray for wisdom.  How could wisdom be bad?  Proverbs 4:7 says, “Wisdom is the principle thing.”

Signs and Wisdom

Signs

Signs are something evident in a way of supernatural intervention.  If there is a God, won’t He do obvious supernatural things?  “If He doesn’t do those, why should I believe in Him?  I want to see some signs.  Wouldn’t He give me those if He really wanted me to believe in Him?  That would be easy for Him, if He really did exist.  If God did give me signs, I would believe.  Since He doesn’t, then I won’t believe or I don’t need to believe.”

The absence of signs is not that God is not working.  He works in thousands of different ways in every moment.  They are all supernatural.  We even can see how God is working in numbers of ways.

People would say they want more than God’s providential working.  That isn’t enough.  They want God to make it easy for them to believe by doing something amazing and astounding like what they read that Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, and the Apostles did.  People desire direct supernatural divine intervention.

Churches feel the pressure to fake signs, because people want them.  They aren’t signs, because they’re faking them, which redefines even what a sign is.  Churches also conjure up experiences that give an impression that something supernatural is occurring.  People can claim a sign from a lowered expectation of what a sign is.  Even if it isn’t something supernatural, people want to feel something at church that might have them think the Holy Spirit is there.  This is their evidence for God.

Wisdom

Wisdom in 1 Corinthians 1 isn’t God’s wisdom, but human or man’s wisdom.  This could be what people call “science” today.  It is scientific proof or evidence.  They need data or empirical evidence.  This is very brainy arguments.

God is working in the world.  It is good to talk about that.  This is known as the providence of God.  He upholds this world and all that is in it in many various ways.  I love that.

A lot of evidence exists out there for everything that is in the Bible:  archaeological, scientific, psychological, logical, and historical.  People will say that’s what they need and that’s what makes sense to them.  Even if they’re not saying that, it makes sense to believers that they need intellectual arguments.

Jews and Greeks in 1 Corinthians 1 represent all apparent seekers in God.  If churches and their leaders are seeker sensitive, they would provide signs and wisdom.  In a categorical way, that’s what they do.  They use the preferred ways of their audience, rather than what God says to do.  Apparent seekers are not the source for a method of salvation.  God is.

You could give analysis as to the place of signs and wisdom as categorical approaches for ministry philosophy.  Churches are rampant with both.  Paul is saying, eliminate those as methods.  Use the God-ordained method only.

God wants preaching as the method of accomplishing salvation.  People are not saved any other way than preaching.  Many reasons exist for this, some given in 1 Corinthians 1 and others in other biblical texts.

Bifurcation in Beauty: Dualism of Spiritual/Sacred and Natural/Secular

Part One     Part Two

You have heard, “Life imitating art or art imitating life.”  In that vein, art imitates worldview.”  Even when someone says, this is his worldview, his art may contradict what he says is his worldview.  The art or his aesthetic is a better or more accurate expression of his worldview than other means of expressing it.

You could see what was important to Jesus by His reaction to the corrupting of the temple, His Father’s house.  When someone blows his top because you dinged his car, that says something about the priority of his car, more than if you asked him.  A person’s music has that way of explaining the meaning of a person’s life.

Worship of and Love for God

One biblical and historical element of worship of God is music.  The Bible is full of music.  Worship is an offering to God.  God regulates the offering.  It must be what God wants for Him to accept it.

Someone said, “You are what (or who) you worship.”  Whatever you give God, that’s what you think about Him.  If you give that to Him, then that expresses who you are, as much as it does who God is.

You can say you love God, like you can say you know God.  If you don’t do what He says, you neither love Him or know Him, which overlap.  The love shines through what you offer.  It is like giving God the present you wanted, not what He did.  You love yourself.

The “life imitating art” part of the equation says that art affects life.  Life changes by the art influencing it.  A person especially changes by the thoughts expressed about God through the music offered God.

The Meaning

What I have written assumes that art means something.  It also says that art itself is not subjective and personal.  Scripture says this, when it says that God is worshiped in the beauty of His holiness.

Beauty, which relates to aesthetics or art, is not in the eye of the beholder.  It is objective in its meaning.  Holiness is beautiful.  That would mean that the unholy is not beautiful.  Everything is not beautiful in its own way.  Some is beautiful and some is not.

God separates from what falls short of the perfections of His attributes.  That is the holiness of God.  God will not receive as worship what falls short of His attributes.  He separates from that as characteristic of His nature.

Bifurcation of Beauty

How is it that today churches do offer God the profane, that is, what conflicts with His attributes?  Churches bifurcate beauty, just like they do with truth.  They separated the spiritual or sacred from the natural or secular.  Like there is total truth, one truth like one God, there is total beauty.

Churches and their leaders (or perhaps the leaders just pander to the people) went along with the split.  They regarded and treated spiritual things as sentimental and emotional, not on the same plain as the natural and the secular.  Church is an escape from the real world.

The music offers that escape and that feeling, which lifts someone emotionally, and is seen as a sacred or spiritual experience with God.  That’s what church does as its most essential.  People leave with a skip in their step, ready to go in the real world, the secular one, even thinking it was God.

Some churches and their leaders would disagree they do what I described in the previous paragraph. They explain it as something different, so removed from what occurred, because now that is the norm for a church.  It’s been done so long, it’s just church now.  It follows the trajectory of a revision of true worship, not true worship.

A church with corrupt music and worship doesn’t see its art as negative or corrupted.  That is instead something profane to the extreme like a Mapplethorpe exhibit of a crucifix in a jar of urine, pushed by the National Endowment of Arts in the late 1980s.  Certain extreme or exotic modern or even postmodern forms, those are wrong.  Not the profanity churches now perform and consider worship.

Tell-Tale

Without the church doing much to anything to help it, the world’s culture has decayed.  Churches veered off objective beauty, or one beauty.  Something is either beautiful  or it is not.  Beauty is not related to secular or spiritual or even sacred.

Music isn’t sacred because it is used in the church; it is sacred because it is sacred. That also means it is beautiful, because, again, beauty relates to the glory of the Lord.  A corruption of beauty, used in worship in the church, does not become beautiful by a church using it, what some today call, “redeeming” it.

The music someone plays and enjoys, and especially for someone who says he is a Christian, by that you can tell who he is.  I know some of you readers hate that.  You deny it sharply and often angrily.  The reasons for the heat also help explain what is happening.

It is easy today for professing Christians to stand up against decadent culture.  They can point out what’s very horrible in bad books in schools and their curriculum.  Meanwhile, their churches are decaying at perhaps a little slower pace but a continuous one that isn’t far behind the world.

What is light and easy, sentimental and emotional, and entertaining also sells.  Salzburg and Vienna and the rest of Europe went for Mozart’s music because of the former, the light and easy, etc.  His dad Leopold, however, liked the selling part of it.  It wasn’t lost on the religious leaders that Mozart also boosted their prominence and position.

Church Consumers

Entertainment, Not Worship

Church attenders become consumers, which is the opposite of worship.  They also confuse that feeling from true spirituality.  It doesn’t matter, because that feeling and spirituality are on the same plain.  When the congregants leave their meeting, they take that experience as preparation for the real world.  That’s also now constituted as God.  The people think they’ve associated with God because it is indistinguishable from Him.  It is actually more aligned with the world they enter after their assembling ends.

Even Baptist meetings have long encouraged the decadence of consumerism.  They entertain a crowd.  The feeling is an apparent sanctified one, which is a lie.  The one who does this the best, a kind of circus-master, is a wanted commodity.  It or he improves the spirit of the meeting, again this superficial, sentimental emotionalism.  God is using his talent.  Most cannot resist the popularity of it.  It is its own pop music.

How could churches permit a philosophy in conflict with God?  Some don’t judge music.  Even though arts are full of meaning, they relegate it to meaninglessness.  It is in this meaningless realm of spirituality, not like what occurs where there is meaning, eight to five, a real life.  Many also judge against the extreme and deem themselves better by comparison.

Loss of Discernment

Young people in church often feel left out.  If they get this music, it at least might connect them to the real world.  This is the acquiescence to youth culture.  Their hormones are raging and they chafe under parental authority. They look happier and parents think the church succeeds at keeping them.  Its young people are happy.  At least they can smile to the rhythm, the feeling, and the allurement.

Churches lose their discernment, described in a biblical way as unable to distinguish the holy from the profane.  It occurs through incrementalism.  Men won’t separate from it.  They won’t say no to it.  It gets worse and then doesn’t stop getting worse.  To explain it requires something more than a thirty second sound byte.  Even if you can, the Bible doesn’t have a play button to give the kind of proof necessary for such diminished discernment.

Country music or Country Western arose in church settings.  It grew among church going young people in the Bible belt.  They took the sentimentality and feelings that corresponded to the bifurcation of beauty in the church.  Country western stars, who began in church, brought a more intense version of it to the world.  It produced an even more extreme response.

Holy and Profane

Ryman Auditorium, the temple of country music, looks like a church building.  It gives people, especially young ones, that feeling they had at church, making their experience in the world indistinguishable from church.  The entertainers at church just do a lesser version of the same thing.  This contrasts with Ezekiel 44:23:

And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

The country stars were good at country music.  What started in church succeeded in the world.  The success in the world, more excessive in its effect, travelled back to the church.  The church accepts it, because that’s the domain of the spiritual.

To Be Continued

Sing the Psalms–A Free App for your Apple or Android Phone

Scripture commands: “[S]ing Psalms” (James 5:13).  The Spirit-filled saint is singing “psalms” as well as hymns and spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:18-21).  If you are a believer, you have the obligation to sing God’s inspired psalms.  You have the blessed privilege to sing the inspired psalms.  You have the glorious blessing to sing to the Father the same words that the Lord Jesus sang to His Father on earth.  What a blessing this is!

 

I am very thankful that recently Bro David Cloud wrote a valuable article commending psalm singingOur church has sung from the 1650 Scottish Psalter, a literal psalter, for many years.  My wife and I have sung through the 1650 Psalter numbers of times in our family devotions–we sing the same psalm every day for a week, and then the next week go on to the next psalm. (We also sing hymns from the Trinity hymnal, Baptist edition–as does our church–and from the Metropolitan Tabernacle’s hymnbook.)

 

Unfortunately, the edition of the 1650 Psalter that our church and our family worships with–a version which includes conservative tunes, rather than being words-only, called the Comprehensive Psalter–is not in print.  The people who have the copyright are planning to reprint it, I have heard, so feel free to reach out to them if you would like physical copies for your church and home.  However, if you are not able to get a physical copy, I am delighted to let you know that a quality app has been designed which includes the text and tunes of the 1650 Scottish Psalter.  The app also plays the tunes so people who do not know how to read music can easily learn to sing the entire psalter.  I would definitely recommend that you download the app, add it to your electronic devices, and joyfully obeying God’s command to sing the songs Christ sung in worship, the inspired, infallible, inerrant Psalms.

 

There are other metrical psalters (versions of the psalms that can be sung), but, in my view, the 1650 Psalter is the best, because it is one of the most literal of the singable psalters.  Probably, in my experience, The Book of Psalms for Singing is my second choice.

 

I added links to both the Apple and Android version of the 1650 Psalter app on my website here in the ecclesiology section, where you can also find other useful helps for psalm-singing.  Here are direct links to the apps:

 

1650 Psalter App for Apple devices

 

1650 Psalter App for Android devices

 

The price is right for the apps–100% free.  That also makes it a great price for people who wish to obey God’s command to sing the psalms in foreign lands.  Anyone, anywhere in the world, can download the app and sing the psalms using his electronic device.  Churches who want to get physical copies of the 1650 Psalter can have everyone sing from his phone until physical copies are in print again.

 

God commands you to sing the psalms.  Why not start today?

 

If you do sing the psalms, how has it been a blessing in your life, in addition to glorifying the Lord?  Feel free to explain in the comment section.

 

TDR

AUTHORS OF THE BLOG

  • Kent Brandenburg
  • Thomas Ross

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