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Answering the “Cultish” Wes Huff Podcast on King James Only (Part Two)
Loving the KJV?
About middle of first episode, Wes Huff says he loves the King James Version, even though he also says in the same paragraph that he doesn’t recommend the King James Version of the Bible. Those like Wes love almost every English translation of the Bible for some reason or another, even though they differ in their underlying text two to seven percent. He thinks the KJV is wrong on a number of passages — longer ending of Mark, woman caught in adultery, and the inclusion of 1 John 5:7. But that’s okay, because no one is completely sure anyway.
Certainty is what makes the “KJVO cult.” To not be a cult requires something more in line with confidence, which is not perfection. Even though I think Huff would support verbal, plenary inspiration of scripture, he doesn’t think we know with certainty what those words are. The underlying text of the King James Version, based on naturalistic presuppositions, is too long.
Tradition? Liking a Clean Narrative and Stability?
Huff then says, “There’s something about humans that like tradition.” He’s saying that support of the King James is because of tradition. I don’t know anyone who says that. He gives no evidence that this is the reasoning behind a continued use of the King James Version. Huff is flat-out wrong on this. Maybe tradition in the Church of England results in the continued usage of the King James Version in certain Anglican congregations, but this isn’t true of the confessional bibliology, ecclesiastical text, or perfect preservationist crowd.
Furthermore, Huff says, people “like a clean narrative” and “stability.” That’s it. He just knows what people really think that they don’t say that they think. They do anyways, because Huff knows better. But this isn’t true. They have scriptural and historical presuppositions. The verses that teach the perfect preservation of scripture guide the expectations about the Bible just like many other doctrines. This is living by faith and not by sight.
Dumbing Down “Perfect”
One of the hosts asks Wes Huff, “If your Bible is not perfect, then how can it be the Word of God?” Huff starts his answer with the words, “I think it begs the question by what we mean by perfect.” Then he says, “I don’t know if I would use the word perfect, because the word perfect implies flawless.” Huff explains that for most of recorded history, you couldn’t do a photocopy of something. You had to write things down and sometimes mistakes were made, Huff says — even with the printing press, giving the example of the infamous “Wicked Bible.”
Question: “Is the Bible a supernatural book?” Could God keep every Word perfect? Did He say He would? Then that’s what we believe — what God said He would do.
Scribal Errors and Debunking God’s Promise of Perfect Preservation
Huff says, “We can’t just brush over the way God has preserved His Word.” He introduces that statement with the reality of scribal errors found in the massive manuscript evidence. He says, “God included humanity into the process.” Huff is true in that men copied scripture and made errors in copying. What he doesn’t mention are these underlying scriptural presuppositions of providential, divine preservation and a settled text. Men have faith in the inspiration of the original manuscripts and they also must have faith in the perfect preservation of the Words of God, based on His promises.
When Huff says we can’t brush away the way God preserved His Word, he’s saying that God didn’t preserve every Word, which itself isn’t preservation. It is unbelief. The prevailing scholarly view is that words were lost. They don’t want to say that, that they are still attempting to restore a lost text, but that is their view. This is their so-called non-cultish view. God said He would keep them, they would be available, but they weren’t, and this is reality.
Hebrews 10:7
The primary host of Cultish asks Huff about an argument from Gene Kim, an online Bible teacher and pastor in Berkeley, California, where he refers to Hebrews 10:7:
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Kim says that God has more than just manuscripts, but a Book. I believe Kim makes a good argument in the line of a settled text of scripture. You can’t just slough it off, like Huff does. God says, “the book” here in Hebrews, a quotation too from Psalm 40:7. Believers would expect “the book,” one book, not just fragments and copies of mere individual books. “The book of Moses” isn’t just one book, but five books. Yet, it is “the book.”
The historical interpretation of “the book” in Hebrews 10:7 is not an anachronism, what Huff calls it. I know someone who hand copied the entire Bible (many have done this) and it is still “the book” as a manuscript, a manual copy, not a printed edition, of the Bible.
The Job of an Apologist
Exegesis
Huff and these men on Cultish are apparently apologists. What’s the point or purpose of apologists or apology? It is defense of what? Shouldn’t they defend what scripture says rather than defend a particular dogma that proceeds from a naturalistic presupposition, conforming scripture to a preconception? Instead, they undermine faith in a perfect Bible, because of the existence of textual variants. Where does denying verses of the Bible stop in the presence of “external evidence” that apparently disagrees with the teaching in the verses?
The historical, biblical interpretation of “the book” in Hebrews 10:7 is the present written scriptures as of the writing of Hebrews 10:7, which is the entire Old Testament, a singular book. “The volume of the book” is “the scroll of the book” both in Psalm 40:7 and Hebrews 10:7. A scroll speaks of a hand copy, that is still a book. This is simple exegesis that Huff will not engage. He ignores the biblical argument and instead shoots from the hip about the anachronism of “the book” as it relates to manuscripts, essentially creating a smoke cloud of obfuscation.
The Expectation of the Book
Huff says that these books, speaking of individual books of the Bible, “floated around independently.” According to scripture, these books were not “floating around.” We know that copies of individual books were sent and shared (Colossians 4:16).
The second host of Cultish then made a point that “the book” in Hebrews 10:7 is not the King James Version. Genius. Who says that? The Father said to the Son, “In the scroll of the King James Version it is written of me.” The point of Kim, I’m sure, is that saints should have an expectation of “the Book,” speaking of all the individual books into one book. What is controversial about that? He is saying that digging up all these fragments and portions of hand copies should not overturn the book God preserved and said He preserved.
“It Is Written”
Furthermore, a point I didn’t hear. Maybe Kim made it in his presentation. “It is written” is perfect indicative passive, meaning that it remains written in the writing of Hebrews. When was the volume written? Settled in heaven with the Father and the Son and continuing until the writing of Hebrews. This is teaching preservation of scripture. These apologists can’t dig into that, because it contradicts their naturalistic presuppositions, ignoring the doctrine of preservation.
I don’t know if Gene Kim thinks that “the book” is the King James Version or its underlying text (apparently, Kim is a Ruckmanite, which we oppose here vociferously). Either way, his point remains, that is, everything written in the book remains in the book. That is the underlying text from which the translation comes. That means the translation is “the Book.” Something is the Book. Kim is saying it is something. I am saying it is something. They are saying, it isn’t quite something. Maybe it is what is written. Probably not, because that’s “reality” as Huff says, which is his epistemology.
More to Come
Answering the “Cultish” Wes Huff Podcast on King James Only (Part One)
Cultish from Apologia Studios
Shortly after Wes Huff appeared on Joe Rogan, he came on a podcast, which affiliates with Apologia Studios, called “Cultish.” The men who do this show are also trying to become viewer or listener funded. In other words, they think they should go full time doing what they do. Their show came on my radar because of Wes Huff’s interview by Joe Rogan. The number of hits on this episode showed the Joe Rogan effect two times removed, 58,000 plus having watched this “Cultish” episode.
Just listening to the interview with Huff to answer King James Only, I would tell them, Don’t quit your day jobs. No one should fund this and for many reasons. It’s a hot mess. So why answer it? I’m doing it because it offers an evaluation of what kind of gibberish and absolute gobbledygook addresses King James Only. It reminds me of the typical left-winged rubbish, such as the woman at CBS who said free speech caused the holocaust. It is on that level, so ignorant, it’s hard to fathom. I find myself just wagging my head.
Straw-manning Versus Steel-manning
Maybe you’ve heard the difference between steel-manning and straw-manning a position. Wikipedia gives a definition to steel-manning (in case you don’t know):
A steel man argument (or steelmanning) is the opposite of a straw man argument. Steelmanning is the practice of applying the rhetorical principle of charity through addressing the strongest form of the other person’s argument, even if it is not the one they explicitly presented.
These men, including Wes Huff, only straw-man the position. If someone were examining something to see if it is a cult (you know, out of concern for the cult member), he would want to give an accurate representation. They do not do that. This is in the nature of bias confirmation and speaking into the echo chamber.
Just to start, why does KJVO appear as a cult? That’s never explained. The subject matter doesn’t belong on a show about cults, but it’s low hanging fruit for the heavily tattooed Apologia crowd and its cohorts. If someone will call KJVO a cult, someone could easily call something an Alexandrian or Vatican text cult, and have similar grounds for it. If KJVO is a cult, how does calling it a cult help deliver someone, who embraces the King James Version as the Bible, from the cult to which he belongs?
The Vulgate Argument
The content of the podcast of part one begins actually around the six minute mark. The Cultish host asks Huff a question about bridging a gap between the Council of Nicea and 1611 and the King James Version, there seeming to be a crying need for a translation from the original languages in 1611. It’s not a bad question. Huff answers the question by saying that the contemporary view of Jerome’s Vulgate is similar to the KJVO view of the King James Version. He says the arguments for the Vulgate and the King James are about the same.
The Vulgate argument did not originate from Huff. It’s been around for at least fifty years, and it is a strawman. As the critical text became more and more accepted in evangelicalism, men began developing arguments against the prevailing view and King James Version support. Huff says the argument is that the Vulgate had been the Bible for a thousand years (404 to 1604) and the King James for five hundred years (1611 to 2025). Actually, five hundred years would span the period of the printed editions of the Textus Receptus (1516-2025) from which the KJV New Testament came.
Truth about the Vulgate Argument
It would be nice to have a conversation about these things from two sides. The acceptance of Jerome came from an apostate state church, those who also believed a false gospel and heretical works salvation. The true internal testimony of the Holy Spirit is not involved in the acceptance of Jerome’s Vulgate, as also seen in the Roman Catholic embrace of extra-scriptural tradition, Papal pronouncements, the magisterium, and apocryphal books. They did not look for preservation of scripture in the original languages or in making the Bible available for Roman Catholics.
The Textus Receptus and Hebrew Masoretic was received by those truly saved by grace through faith alone. They were the texts received by the churches as authentic. The Vulgate didn’t come from an original Hebrew or Greek Text. Jerome worked from the Greek Septuagint and Latin Translations, not original language texts. Later Jerome looked at Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament for the sake of accuracy, but he still stuck with Old Latin translations for his New Testament work.
Jerome didn’t translate from the Greek New Testament and consider that “the Bible of the church” as Huff invents on the spot. He does this on many different occasions when I’ve heard him in different podcasts. He says this with a face of total confidence, but it is absolutely untrue. Huff says that the Roman Catholic objection of an original language text is the same as the one of KJVO, that is, the Latin has been the Bible for one thousand years.
Original Language Preservation
Historically, after the fall of the Roman Empire and throughout the Middle Ages, there were limited vernacular translations due to low literacy rates and strict control over biblical texts by the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical authorities. They didn’t want translation work done from original language texts, but in keeping with the approved Latin Vulgate, which become increasingly less understood by the rank and file citizens of Europe.
The argument for the King James concerns the preservation and availability of the original words of scripture in their original languages. The churches agreed on these words for hundreds of years. These were Spirit indwelt men and churches operating therefore with the testimony of the Holy Spirit. This is the heritage of the King James Version, not a magisterium model of Roman Catholicism. When you read the bibliology writings of truly converted theologians for hundreds of years after the printing press, they embraced the infallibility of the apographa, the copies of scripture, identical to the originals by providential preservation.
Huff says the KJVO and the Jerome Vulgate were “almost the exact same argument.” This is just an ad hominem and strawman attack that is patently false. What Huff really thinks will come out in this podcast and I’ll point it out when we get there. It was only Roman Catholicism arguing for continued use of Jerome’s Vulgate, not true churches.
Further along, Huff says that the apostles quoted from the Greek translation of the Old Testament. This is itself a new and common argument from critical text supporters, advocating for a corrupt translation of the Old Testament as an authority. This makes way for support of a less than perfect text of the Bible, not the biblical or historical view of the church.
Earlier English Translations
From the Vulgate conversation, the other Cultish host asked Huff about the history of English translations of the Bible. He mentioned Wycliffe and then Tyndale, also saying that Tyndale died for translating the Bible into English. At his execution on October 6, 1536, Tyndale was accused of “Lutheran heresy” for including prologues and footnotes that criticized church doctrine and authority. The charges did not say Bible translation.
Huff fails to reveal that the earlier English translations also translated the Textus Receptus and the Hebrew Masoretic, so that the underlying text of the King James was received and reigned before 1611. He also does not mention that Henry VIII authorized the Great Bible and ordered the translators to compare with Tyndale’s work. The King James Version is very close to Tyndale. Huff later says that part. They obviously also relied on his work. Tyndale, even though not carrying the name Baptist, which no one used yet, was Baptistic, even as he took a believer’s baptism position, even against both Puritan and Anglican alike.
Editions of the Textus Receptus
The next argument against this “cult” of KJVO from Huff relates to the underlying text of the King James being a Texti Recepti, rather than one Textus Receptus. Again, this is a strawman. The editions of the Textus Receptus, although they differ in a very small number of ways, represent one text. Those who printed these editions didn’t see them as different texts. Every historian and scholar knows that. Those who like to point out the several editions are angling for the King James translators doing textual criticism, as another faux argument.
You really can’t say that the King James translators were looking at Hebrew and Greek texts from which to translate and then also say that no text existed for the King James until Scrivener’s in the late 19th century. These contradict one another and this brings us back to a absence of a needed steel-manning.
Huff called the editions of Stephanus and Beza “updates” of Erasmus. The editions are homogeneous because they are the same text with minor variations, explained as corrections of minor errors. This period of printed editions did not continue past the middle 17th century. The churches settled, this explained as the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit.
The text behind the King James Version was a settled edition from the printed edition period. Huff says the translators used the science and art of textual criticism, which is a revisionist spin on what they did. All of the words in Scrivener’s were available to the King James translators and the churches. They possessed the original language words translated in 1611. No one was saying, “We don’t have a Greek text.” No one. That’s a modern innovation from those whom Huff mimics with this argument.
Underlying Text and Preservation
Huff entraps himself at about 22:45 in the podcast, when he reads the title page of the Trinitarian Bible Society Greek New Testament, which says the underlying Greek text of the 1611 King James Bible. The key word there is “underlying.” It underlay the King James Version, not proceeded from it.
One of the hosts asks Huff at about 24 minutes what is the difference between the critical text and the Textus Receptus and Huff says the critical text is “a text that is produced.” Good answer. You’ve got a preserved text and then a produced text. The latter does not represent the biblical doctrine of preservation. It denies it. Huff never mentions it. The doctrine of preservation should be at the forefront, but it isn’t because they deny the biblical and historical doctrine of preservation of scripture. They see it as naturalistic, something humanly produced.
More to Come
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