Home » Posts tagged 'respect'

Tag Archives: respect

If You Want to Lose Men in and from a Church

Statistics and Studies

As of June 2022, thirty-six percent of women said they attended church the last Sunday, but only twenty-four percent of men did (Gallup, 2021).  Those percentages are not the same everywhere.  Statistics or studies show that men are less religious in gender-equal countries. The Pew Research Center says that women have more influence on a family’s religious practices.  Perhaps you are a church leader and you wonder why churches are losing more men than women.

Artificial intelligence, represented by ChatGPT, which culls from the entire internet, says that 60 to 70 percent of women want an egalitarian relationship with men.  In 2019, in a Pew study, sixty-eight percent said that gender equality increased in the United States.  At the same time and in the same study, more than ten percent said religion has a less important place in society (37%) than said it was more important (27%).  Family ties weakened by fifty-eight percent to fifteen percent.  I asked AI whether men or women wanted egalitarianism more and it answered:

In conclusion, based on research findings and survey data, it is evident that women generally want egalitarianism more than men, as they exhibit greater support for gender equality, express higher levels of concern about existing inequalities, and actively engage in initiatives aimed at promoting equal rights and opportunities for all individuals regardless of gender.

In the year 1997, the United Nations did a study on women in authority, published in 2000.  The study said that women in authority often assumed male attributes, even male dress. Contemporary women executives wear “power suits.”  Fourteen percent of men prefer a female boss compared to thirty-nine percent of women.  Another study, August 2022, said that 28 percent of women prefer a female boss compared to 16 percent a male one.

Egalitarianism, Complementarianism, and Patriarchalism

Egalitarianism does not help family unity.  It results in less prominence of religion.  Also, it traces to men less involved in or happy in church.  Almost everything I’m saying I don’t think needs statistics to know.  I’ve seen it myself firsthand.  Most of all, the Bible teaches male authority, a position called “patriarchalism.”  The verse in scripture that best represents the totality of the position of patriarchy is 1 Corinthians 11:3:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

“The head of the woman is the man” is axiomatic.  It’s talking about society in general, especially in the context of that section in 1 Corinthians.  I, however, address for this post the place of men in the church.

Many churches today push their egalitarianism right to the front.  They want it.  Others say they are complementarian, but they practice egalitarian.  Few really believe it.  The fewest dare say they are patriarchal.  Even some of those only say it, but practice in a greater way mainly complementarianism.

Patriarchy is biblical.  It also attracts biblical men.  I’m saying masculine men or men who are actually men.  A basic and simple test is whether a church comfortably talks about what this all means.  The church isn’t hiding its patriarchal belief and practice.  It promotes it.

Losing Men by Violating the Man Code

When I talk about losing men, I mean talking about losing real men.  I’m also talking about losing those with the male sex, that might not operate as a real man as of yet.

Today, when I say man code, even men might automatically think of male chauvinism that protects bad behavior.  I don’t mean that.  However, I think of a biblical way that men don’t turn on each other.  They’ve got each others backs.  It’s not unusual for men to capitulate to women and defy the code.  Perhaps in so doing, they give up their man card.

When you read Genesis 3, it looks early on that men want to please women.  Adam did.  He wasn’t deceived by the serpent (1 Tim 2:14).  Instead, he ‘hearkened unto the voice of his wife’ (Gen 3:17) and God cursed him because of it.  Even as I write this, some men today look for something wrong.  Women might too.  This is enough to shut men down and bring a church back to the status quo or a societal norm. Some might call this conventional thinking.

If you want to lose men in the church, you can violate the man code.  When I say that, I mean violate the ways God intends to respect the male role in the church.  If you want to lose men, just do these things.  You’ll lose men fast.

A First Way to Lose Men

Before I talk about a first one, men, understand that you don’t have to push the eject button, just because a man or church violated the code.  Give someone a break.  Talk to someone about it.  That’s manhood.  Don’t leave just because your meter sets off an alarm.  That itself isn’t manly.  Some churches though set off buzzers and keep setting them off.  The men disappear.

You will lose your men if as habit or practice, you address the woman and not the man.  This could occur many different ways and not in any particular order.  All of the following five will apply to this common way for churches and even other institutions for losing men.

Application One

One, in the most simple way, you should walk to the man and talk to the man.  Spend time with him first.  When you hover around the woman, maybe because the interest she shows, the vitality she has toward the organization, that won’t be lost on the man.  He gets it.

The woman exists, but you might need to act like she doesn’t, if you have the temptation to start with her.  Draw a circle around him and head into that circle.  Ask him about his work.  Lead into spiritual things without fear.  Don’t act like those things are unusual, but right down main street for a man.  Talk to him.

Sometimes women automatically start the conversation.  They talk and talk and talk while a man stands in silence.  Everyone watches her.  Instead of looking at her, look at her husband, and when she gives you a break, start talking to the man and keep talking to him, forcing her into some kind of silence.  Learn to talk to him as if he has something to say.

Application Two

Two, when you visit, ask for the man.  The woman might arrive at the door, but you ask, where is the man (husband, etc.)?  If he is sleeping, that doesn’t mean stay and talk to her.  You could ask, “Good seeing you, but when do you think he might be available?”  Get the time and get together with him.

Application Three

Three, make appointments with the man.  The meeting is with him, not with her.  What’s a good time for the man?  “When do you think that you and I can meet?”  “It would be great to have you over for supper.”  “Would like to have coffee sometime?”  Do not ask the woman whether they want to come.  Go to the man about that.  He might ask his wife, but not your asking the wife.  Look at him in the eye and talk to him.

Men still break number three all the time with me.  They ask my wife about something related to me, like going to mom instead of dad, because it’s easier to get a “yes” answer.  Instead of texting me, they text her and ask her if she’ll ask me.

Application Four

Four, don’t talk to the wife about her husband except to say how great he is.  Never undermine him with his wife or significant other.  You will lose the man if you undermine the man.  Even if it looks like he’s got bigger problems than her, you don’t say that to her.  If you want to talk about his problems, talk to him about them, not her.  She easily can look for your approval for putting him down.  Don’t do it.

Application Five

This next one is vitally important.  It’s probably the easiest of these to violate, and you really are violating the man code, when you do.  Five, if the wife or woman wants to talk about something bad about her husband or man, don’t do it without talking to him first.  Part of fake manhood is thinking that you’ve got to rescue some other woman.  You could have the false sense that you’re somehow God’s gift to women and all of them should talk to you. Maybe you will need to rescue a woman, but if you don’t want to lose men, you better go to the man first when his woman, his wife, wants to report something bad about him.

I see men violate this last rule again, again, and again.  Surely it happens in the work place many, many times.  It’s also very much prey for infidelity.  She gains a higher opinion about the counselor or leader than she does about her own man.  That can become a very difficult barrier to solve in the future for her man (husband).  It also brings a possible dangerous closeness with the one listening approvingly.

Even when only the woman is in the church, I want to get close to the man.  I show interest in him even when he isn’t interested.  Obviously, he might say he doesn’t want any attention, but usually this isn’t the case.  He’s a man made in the image of God, so you can respect that about him.

Due Process

I’ve seen church leaders talk to a wife and keep talking to the wife and not include him in the conversation.  They call this counseling.  It isn’t, because something major is missing.  It’s called “due process,” a basic aspect of justice.

A man could have done something very seriously wrong.  He may still be doing it.  Through the years, I’ve seen that as the case.  More times than not, he isn’t and she’s exaggerating or just blaming a situation on him.  Even if he is the one doing wrong, the conversation should not go to her, but go to him.  This should happen as soon as possible.

Almost immediately church leadership must talk to both parties.  “Wait a minute.  Do you mind if I let your man (your husband) know that you’re talking to me?”  I don’t care how persuasive it might be.

Bring both parties together in Solomonic fashion, but starting with talking to the husband and it’s great if you can say, “She didn’t say anything to me.  I told her I wanted to talk to you first.  We should do that, but it would be better if we could get together.”  For sure you can’t enter into the conversation with the man, having believed what someone else said about him without having talked to him.  You can lose men if you won’t do that.  They see it as betrayal.

Falling Short of Patriarchy

Violation of one or more of these five points fall short of patriarchy, God’s biblical intention.  They betray a kind of practical egalitarianism.  Someone reading might say that they allow a man to get away with offenses.  That’s not true.  Instead they will help salvage a situation with a man and really help him, not excuse or cover for something a man is doing or has done wrong.

Churches all over the country lose men because they break these basic standards of decency and respect.  It would be good if they might apologize to men for violating them, and then start over.  It’s much harder to respect men who will not operate this way.  Through years, I’ve had many men not give me the respect of operating this way.  Most of the time, they don’t even know what they’re doing wrong.  Then when they find out, they just make excuses for themselves.  Excuses over this behavior will make it ever more likely to lose a man, sort of the coup de grace in the process.

I’ve found men want you to treat them like a man.  Ironically, men forget or don’t even know how to treat another man like a man.  If you want to keep men, you’ve got to treat men like men.  This first principle for not losing men is a first in the man code.  The five points applying the principle also constitute an important delineation of the man code.

Why Don’t Men Talk to Men?

More to Come

Pragmatism, Playing Games, and “Recovering from Fundamentalism”

If you look at a picture of the attendees of a professional baseball game during the 1940s, you see the crowd filled with men in suits and ties.  I don’t know if they called them fans then, but were they legalists?  Anyone who would wear a suit and tie to a baseball game must be a legalist.  That’s what I’ve heard about men today who wear that to church.  They’re legalists.
On the other hand, if someone now wears skinny jeans and a t-shirt while he preaches, that, my friends, is, what I’ve been told, someone who understands the grace of God.  He’s also recovering from fundamentalism.  Maybe you didn’t think it was that simple, but that’s how men, who refer to themselves as “recovering fundamentalists,” do characterize those who wear a suit, shirt, and tie, when they preach the Word of God behind the pulpit.
Men who wore suits to ball games in the 1940s had their reasons.  They didn’t wear suits everywhere they went and doing anything they did.  Men for similar reasons in the 1950s wore suits when they traveled on an airplane or other kinds of public transportation.  In many instances still today, men will wear a suit to a wedding or a funeral.  This was a way to show respect in a culture that put a premium still on showing respect.
Some still consider events and places sacred.  You’ve heard the question, “Is nothing sacred any more?”  Events and places once treated sacred are not any more.  A culture where little is sacred surrenders its means, its symbols and expressions, for treating anything sacred.  It blurs the distinctions between the sacred and the profane.
More than ever today being comfortable and casual is more important in priority than respect and sacredness.  Men come as they are.  In 1 Corinthians 13:5, Paul teaches that love does not behave itself unseemly.  Something unseemly is unfitting of the occasion, like having bad manners.  If something can be unseemly, it can obviously also be seemly.
Personal comfort is about yourself.  “You do you.”  Respect, which relates to something else besides you, is less important, of lesser value, than you.  Love is fruit of the Spirit.  Love seeketh not its own.  That’s God and not you. Many, if not most, worship the idol of “you.”

IFB Off-Ramp

In a very recent youtube video entitled “The IFB Off-Ramp,” Mark Ward interviewed, whom he identified as one of the “recovering fundamentalists” (RF), whom I don’t know.  His interviewee had debated a Ruckmanite IFB over “KJV Onlyism,” also abbreviated KJVO.  Behind the RF in the interview was a piece of modern artwork with a row of varied abstract headstocks of guitars, promoting also a kind of modern music.
The RF says he wants to help and encourage men to be scriptural.  The commonality between Ward and the RF was replacing the King James Version with a modern version.  In the comment section, John Brock, perhaps the former academic dean of Maranatha Baptist University or a close relative, wrote:

Mark, good vid. I appreciate your spirit and the work you do.  I would love to see Nathan’s organization change its name to something less demeaning to the IFB faithful.  “Recovering” is commonly used for sinful vices and applying the term to Bible believing Christians/churches is more apropos to the enemies of the cross.  Your ministry is special and done so well.  I appreciate the sensitivity that you have.  The average believers in fundamental Baptist churches are sincere brethren and demeaning them with broad strokes is unhelpful and can be unloving.  I also would tend to respect the common dress expectations of a church (when invited as a speaker) rather than to parade differences on things of lesser significance.  Keep placing the emphasis on lovingly, respectfully but courageously affirming the truth regarding our precious Book.

Mark Ward answered also in public:

I totally understand where you’re coming from. I think I’ve made my peace with the name, because as an internet writer (blogs and YouTube) I have come—a bit reluctantly—to realize that some amount of “clickbait” in one’s headlines is part of the game. I say some amount because me and my old editor at the Logos Blog agreed we would never promise something that didn’t come true. But we knew we were fighting for eyeballs. You can see that in my video title here: “The IFB Off-Ramp.” That’s probably a bit more attention-getting that strictly necessary.

Brock presented at least two criticisms:  (1)  Change the name of RF because of wrong aspects especially about the meaning of “recovering” and how it demeans independent Baptists, and (2) respect the common dress expectations of a church.
Ward dealt only with argument one.  He justified to Brock the titles Recovering Fundamentalist (RF) and IFB Off-Ramp because they were (1) clickbait, (2) part of the game, and (3) fighting for eyeballs.  You get a bigger crowd if you use the methodology.
Mark Ward didn’t answer either of Brocks points.  He essentially said that you’ve got to do certain means and methods to reach a certain end.  The end justifies the means.  Some might be familiar with this as pragmatism.

Pragmatism?

Do modern version advocates, most often critical text proponents, follow scripture as the basis for what they do?  Both Ward and the RF say that’s what it is.  I don’t hear anything scriptural in particular coming from either of them in the interview, except for Ward’s brief reference to 1 Corinthians 14:9 and his intelligibility argument.  I’m not going to address that again here.

From my observation and many others’, IFB has been steeped in pragmatism.  They’ve used gimmicks or carnal means to attract crowds.  They’ve been doing that for decades, because it was a good way to get eyeballs.  It is proverbial “clickbait” and “playing the game.”
This IFB pragmatism also either followed, led to, or paralleled a superficial, 1-2-3 pray-with-me “gospel” for numbers.  The two feed off each other.  You can’t keep a crowd attracted by superficial means with an in depth presentation.  It also must carry with it certain characteristics fitting of the spirit of this age.
When almost the entire infrastructure and happenings around an apparently serious dealing with scripture is modernistic, worldly, compromising, and casual, that affects the message.  As someone famously wrote:  the medium is the message.  All of the surrounding and environment and context affect the understanding.  It’s like blowing an uncertain trumpet.  The message will lose its intelligibility.  This all relates to Christian worldview.
What does it mean to recover from this brand of fundamentalism?  Does it mean going to more that is superficial, like the modern art, pop music, and casual and worldly dress?  Many adherents to evangelicalism want a church with a modern version.  It’s a prerequisite that goes along with all the other pragmatism that is used to get eyeballs.  Most everyone in the theater seating doesn’t care what the underlying text is.
Mark Ward is willing to associate and fellowship with Recovering Fundamentalists.  The real deal breaker would be if they used only the King James Version.  On the other hand, if someone preaches a true gospel, evangelizes in a scriptural way, and has a reverent assembly with robust expository preaching, even using the original languages, but it uses only the King James Version, that divides Mark Ward.  The RF are Mark Ward’s bedfellows.  These are his people.

AUTHORS OF THE BLOG

  • Kent Brandenburg
  • Thomas Ross

Archives