There is an organization called “The Anabaptists [sic] Church Worldwide” that supports a “Street Preacher Fellowship.” It is a cult, a false religion.
This blog post will not focus upon peripheral problems, such as the poor English grammar evident in the fact that the organization’s name does not appear to understand the role of the apostrophe and the many grammatical errors in its statement of faith and other documents.
Nor will it focus upon the fact that the cult rejects the congregational church polity of Anabaptism for a form of hierarchicalism with a “Biblical presbytery rule [sic]” and “national bishops” and so is not Anabaptist, but would be better called Episcopalian than Anabaptist, although it may not even understand what episcopalian, presbyterian, and congregational church polity are.
Nor will it focus upon the fact that the cult does not understand that the church of the New Testament is not universal or invisible. Nor will it focus upon affirmations in its doctrinal statement such as that Christians are “at point [sic] of salvation baptized by the Holy Spirit of God into one body . . . and that body being not all [sic] figurative, but altogether real, physically . . . that body is Christ’s . . . each born again child of God is literally made to be . . . members of Jesus Christ’s body, of His flesh and of His bones.” The members of the organization do not, however, literally disappear into the ascended human body of Christ to become part of His literal bone marrow, and, remember, the statement is allegedly literal, “not at all figurative.”
Nor will it focus upon the cult’s extreme Ruckmanism, through which it denies Christ’s promises to preserve the Greek and Hebrew words which were dictated by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 5:18) and denigrates study of the preserved words of God in the original languages. Nor will it focus upon how the cult undermines confidence in the King James Bible through its extremism. Nor will it focus upon the bizarre idea in its doctrinal statement that the Bible actually is God in written form, an idea which the pseudo-Baptist cultist Steven Anderson has also adopted.
Nor will it focus upon the cult’s tendency to name-calling and careless study of Scripture, nor upon the fact that the section in its doctrinal statement on (the wicked sin of) sodomy adds ideas not present in the Bible; nor on the fact that the cult also follows Steven Anderson and rejects Scripture by teaching that sodomites cannot be saved (with the “Anabaptists Church” cult making certain qualifications to this), nor on the fact that it spends more time on sodomy than it does on the nature of God, and that only its statement on sodomy, but nothing else in its doctrinal statement, ends with the affirmation: “This section of the Articles of Faith of the Anabaptists Church [sic] Worldwide is not subject to revision, and shall never be changed by any presbytery without the dissolvement [sic] of the Church Worldwide.” Apparently even the bad grammar in this section of the cult’s articles of faith cannot be changed; but that is not the focus of this blog post.
What is the worst false doctrine of this cult? The worst false teaching is its rejection of the Trinity and of the incarnation of Christ in favor of a bizarre, blasphemous, and ignorant form of modalism. Its article of faith on the Trinity includes the following:
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2.3 We believe that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and that the Holy Spirit is
that very Spirit of the Lord God (Isaiah 61:1, 10.11, 14), and was the very
breath of Life in Jesus Christ (Isaiah 11:4/ Job 33:4/ John 20:22).
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2.4 We believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father (John 10:30) manifest in the
flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), and that Jesus Christ was and is the bodily
manifestation of God Almighty.
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2.5 As a ghost is the spirit of a dead man (Luke 24:37/ Matthew 14:26), we
believe that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus Christ which He gave up on
Calvary when He died for our sins (John 19:30/ Matthew 27:50/ Mark
15:37/ Luke 23:46), and as the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:2-8) is the Spirit of Jesus
Christ (Romans 8:9/ Philippians 1:19). These Three being One God, each
exists eternally as God, and as the manifestations of themselves in One as
distinguished from the Other. God is a spirit, and that spirit is the Holy
Spirit, who was the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) of Jesus Christ, who Himself
was the bodily manifestation of God the Father with the Holy Spirit
breathing within Him as the very Life of God. Though the Eternal God cannot
die, God the Father sent His Son into the world to do just that, yielding up
the ghost when He had finished His Father’s work; upon which the Holy
Ghost of God became the working manifestation of God the Father in
baptizing believers into the very body of God, Jesus Christ the Righteous (1
Corinthians 12:11-14/ Acts 1:5).
The statement that “Jesus Christ is God the Father” is modalist heresy and idolatry. It is a damnable false doctrine. It proclaims a false God, a denial and rejection of the true God. Jesus Christ is the Son, not the Father. By teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father, this cult shows that they are antichrist, denying the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22).
The affirmations in 2.5 make a crazy confusion of Christ’s human spirit with the Holy Spirit. By denying that Christ’s human soul and spirit were separated from His body at His death, instead claiming that the Holy Spirit was present instead of Christ’s human spirit, the “Anabaptists Church Worldwide” cult denies the true humanity of Christ. Only if Christ had a true and complete humanity, body, soul, and spirit, could He represent and save sinful mankind. Section 2.5 denies Christ’s true humanity by claiming that the Holy Spirit replaced the Lord Jesus’ human spirit, something similar to the ancient heresy of Apollinarianism (although if the cult’s members cannot even write in English properly, and think Anabaptists held to presbyterian church polity, it is not likely that they have much understanding of early Trinitarian controversies). By denying the true and complete humanity of Jesus Christ, the “Anabaptists Church Worldwide” cult shows itself to be of the “spirit of antichrist,” and its members to be deceivers and antichrists (1 John 4:3; 2 John 7).
Various parts of their doctrinal statement also teach the idolatrous idea that God is body, soul, and spirit like people are–the Holy Spirit is allegedly God’s eternal spirit part, based on a confusion of the use of the word Spirit for the third Person and also for the human spirit. The words for spirit, ruach and pneuma, are also used for the wind in the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is not God’s eternal wind. God’s eternal body part is allegedly the Son, denying His true incarnation in time (1 John 4:1-3) and thus evidencing itself as antichrist. God’s eternal soul part is allegedly the Father, something for which Scripture gives not a scintilla of evidence. The cult claims Biblical support for its idolatry by assuming that since man is in the image of God, God must be body, soul, and spirit, ignoring the fact that the image of God in man is “righteousness and true holiness” (Ephesians 4:24) and that the image is being progressively renewed in believers through progressive sanctification (Colossians 3:10), so the image of God in man has absolutely nothing to do with the wicked blasphemy that God is an eternal Son-body, spirit-Holy Ghost, and soul-Father.
There are a number of things that a born-again child of God, and a member of one of Christ’s true Baptist churches, could find attractive about the “Anabaptists Church Worldwide” cult. It claims to stand for the KJV; it believes in modesty and gender distinction; it (pretends) to be part of the Anabaptist/Baptist line of true churches; it takes a strong stand against sins the world is promoting, such as homosexuality; it claims to be fearless and bold in its preaching; it practices street preaching, which is very good, and so on. One can hope that perhaps some of the members of this cult are too ignorant to realize that their articles of faith deny the Trinity and the true humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ in favor of modalism and a form of Apollinarianism. Regrettably, none of the above nice things justify its wicked rejection of the true God and of the incarnate Christ. Who cares if you are modestly dressed if you are a blasphemer and idolator? Those that actually believe its doctrinal statement will find themselves in hell with the Antichrist. Those that are too ignorant to understand its heresies have no business preaching to anybody (1 Timothy 3:1) until they learn the rudiments of Christianity on the nature of God.
If you are a member of the “Anabaptist Church Worldwide” and “Street Preacher Fellowship” cult, I call on you to repent of your idolatry and other sins, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be saved (Mark 1:15), and then separate yourself from this cult and join one of Christ’s true churches. Learn more about Christ’s true gospel and His true church here.
–TDR
Whoever wrote these articles clearly has no business teaching doctrine just as the typos in the spam email dictate the relative importance of the content.
This, meanwhile, has been going on since the Bible was written. People want to write new articles to get people to sign onto a manmade system derived from the charismatic human leaders behind it. It's built not around anything but a gang of individuals who try to make a cult out of it.
And Sabellians/Modalists have always used John 10:30 and other things out of context to support essentially the same heretical ideas, with the obvious goal in mind of gathering a cult, using very plastic and superficial appearance of following Scripture which is placed under their control. This is all brazenly done as if there were no truth standard which they were failing to meet, due to their lack of belief in God. Hence they are all wresting the word of God unto their own destruction if they don't repent.
Having said all that, I have asked David Cloud about some of the things he wrote in his book but he did not really provide an adequate response to my questions. I'm not sure if you want to use him as a reference point here.
I can try to be nice to a brother who is a FOOL, but I will refrain from answering such a FOOL according to his folly lest THOU shall also be LIKE unto HIM, EXCEPT to correct his comprehension abilities.
The FOOL cannot read "2.5 These Three, (THREE, 3, 1[Father] X 1[Son] X 1[Spirit] = 1[Godhead]) being One God, each exists eternally as God, and as the manifestations of themselves in One as distinguished from the Other" which LIMITS the reading of 2.4 that Jesus Christ is the Father IN CONTEXT to John 10:30 and that Jesus Christ is also one of the THREE! For the FOOL should know that Jesus Christ is the BODY of God, the ONLY one manifest in the flesh, born of a virgin. That is neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost.
To say were not saved is the height of EVIL SURMISINGS and STRIFE OF WORDS, against another brother. God will deal with your appropriately, unless you repent.
I would rather start over, but YOU and others do not want to make things right.
A Preacher of Righteousness,
George Calvas
Dear George,
John 10:30 says absolutely nothing about Jesus Christ being the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Note the verb is plural–not "I and my Father is one," but "are" one. Furthermore, "one" is neuter, not masculine; the Son and the Father are one being, one thing, one God, not one Person.
When you say "Jesus Christ is the body of God," are you arguing for the further cultic blasphemy that the Father is the soul of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, and Jesus Christ is the body of God?
To say "Jesus Christ is the Father" is actually Antichrist, according to 1 John 2. Vindicating the content of this post by carnal name-calling does not change that fact.
George, I urge you to repent before you stand before Christ and find out in horror that He is not the Father and that the god of your cult is not the living God, but an idol.
Thanks Andrew.
Bro Cloud is not infallible, but what he writes is, in my view, generally very helpful, and I am happy to recommend him as a source. If there are specific things you believe he is taking out of context that relate to the content of this post, though, feel free to share them.
"Nor will it focus upon the cult's extreme Ruckmanism, through which it denies Christ's promises to preserve the Greek and Hebrew words which were dictated by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 5:18) and denigrates study of the preserved words of God in the original languages."
You can take your Greek and Hebrew and relegate it to the HISTORICAL SHELF it belongs on. God's FINAL AUTHORITY is found in the Holy Ghost inspired ENGLISH text and has been using it WORLDWIDE for 400 YEARS. No one needs any diseased with Greekities to infect the body of Christ, for just like the GREEKS, "thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: [perverted historical preservationists] we would know therefore what these things mean. (For all the Athenians [Original language religionists] and strangers [false Baptists using historical preservation as their God] which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)"
The Holy King James Bible is the ONLY bible that is inspired WORLDWIDE. We do not need to "hear some new thing".
This should give you some more fodder to work with.
A Preacher of Righteousness
"There are a number of things that a born-again child of God, and a member of one of Christ's true Baptist churches"
What do you mean by true Baptist churches. Are you part of the perverted teaching of Baptist briders? Do you believe if you are not baptised or taking communion in a Baptist church, you are not saved? Do you believe in the heretical teaching of briders that only those in the "right Baptist church" are the bride of Christ and other are only friends of the bride?
This is in context to the cult mentality that you continue to posit. It seems you have nothing better to do in life but to FIND FAULT in other brothers, but "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
A Preacher of Righteousness
George,
You call names, ask questions, and make statements, but that doesn't change your continued perverted view of God expressed in that doctrinal statement. It is an old heresy. You can't believe in the Jesus of your choice and there isn't a range of acceptable Jesus to receive.
Hi George, could you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.
I'll let your allegorical explanation of Acts 17 stand without comment.
George, you need to repent of your view that Jesus is the Father.
Also, George, I don't care if you are a Ruckmanite when you are Antichrist for saying the Father is the Son. Once you believe in the true God, the Holy Spirit can illuminate you to your Ruckmanite foolishness.
"By denying the true and complete humanity of Jesus Christ, the "Anabaptists Church Worldwide" cult shows itself to be of the "spirit of antichrist," and its members to be deceivers and antichrists (1 John 4:3; 2 John 7)."
You are a LIAR. What is written or what I know the bible teaches is that Jesus Christ IS 100% MAN and 100% God. You need to confess your sins of LYING about a brother.
Stop your EVIL SURMISINGS and a SLANDER of a brother in Christ. And you call yourself a Christian? You RAIL on me by calling me an antichrist? What a deluded, self-righteous, egotistical fool.
Shame on you.
A Preacher of Righteousness
Hi George,
While you are doing a great job validating the content of the post by carnal name-calling, you do not seem to be doing a very good job of answering simple questions. You called me a liar, but you did not give any evidence whatever for the alleged Baptist belief that one must be baptized and take the Lord's Supper to be saved. What if you just told a lie there?
Unanswered question:
#1: Dear George,
John 10:30 says absolutely nothing about Jesus Christ being the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Note the verb is plural–not "I and my Father is one," but "are" one. Furthermore, "one" is neuter, not masculine; the Son and the Father are one being, one thing, one God, not one Person.
When you say "Jesus Christ is the body of God," are you arguing for the further cultic blasphemy that the Father is the soul of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, and Jesus Christ is the body of God?
Unanswered question:
#2: Hi George, could you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.
Two new questions:
#3: Will you renounce the antichrist ideas that "Jesus Christ is God the Father" and that the Holy Spirit somehow replaced the human spirit of Christ?
#4: Why not answer the questions instead of offering lots of insults? The insults say a lot about the "Anabaptists [sic] Church" religious organization and about you as a member of it, but not a lot about me or my character. Thanks.
One last thing, George. I didn't write this:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
If you have a problem with my statement that the one who says Jesus is the Father is antichrist, please take it up with the Divine Author of 1 John 2:22-23. When you call me a fool, etc. for telling you what this passage says, remember "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" (Matthew 10:40).
I urge you to repent of idolatry and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ–the real Christ who is not the Father.
We don't need to hear a "qualification" or an "explanation" for your doctrinal statement's affirmation that Jesus Christ is God the Father, any more than if your doctrinal statement had said "Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead" but then put in a "qualification" like "He rose in a spiritual, non-tangible way in the hearts of his followers." We need to see repentance for the heresy that Jesus Christ is the Father, not name-calling, attempts to explain it away, and stubborn refusal to repent of idolatry.
#1: Dear George,
[gcalvas] Do not patronize me. If I am an "antichrist" in your mind, then
"For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds".
———————
John 10:30 says absolutely nothing about Jesus Christ being the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one
[gcalvas] He is the Father ONLY in context to the verse above and others such as "he that have seen ME, hath seen the Father" (John 15:24) and "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him, and have SEEN him" (John 14:7) and For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6)
To the people who knew God, or are known of God, he is the IMAGE of the Father on earth. When you SEE the Father, you SEE Jesus Christ and therefore he "is" the Father as manifest to the world. That does NOT mean that he only manifests himself in that way. MORE OFTEN, he manifests himself as "SEPARATE" from the Father, as one of three in the Godhead. In other words, the Lord Jesus Christ, died for the sins of the world, not the Father nor the Spirit. The Father sent his Son, not the Spirit (John 5:23, 1 John 4:10). The Holy Ghost inspired the words of God, not the Father or the Son (2 Peter 1:20-21).
Who is sufficient to understand the Godhead and how they operate as three and as one PERFECTLY?
Example: 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
It says he IS come in the flesh.
QUESTION #1: If he is come, NOT has come, where is he?
———————————-
#2: Hi George, could you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.
[gcalvas] That is a form of Baptist briderism (landmarkism). I know the teachings of this form of doctrine, for the theology teaches, "Landmark theology, or heritage theology, is the belief among some independent Baptist churches that only local, independent Baptist congregations can truly be called "churches" in the New Testament sense."
If you are not "a church" (another perverted view of the church) that fits "the heritage" of the Baptist, then you cannot be a member of the church, therefore what are you a member of?
Do not put words in my mouth. I never said a person goes to hell if he is not a brider, but a brider church I attended years ago taught that he is not part of the bride, but rather "the friend of the bridegroom" (John 3:29). I left that church because of twisted theology that the only church is a baptist church.
—————————————
(Continued…)
A Preacher of Righteousness
#3: Will you renounce the antichrist ideas that "Jesus Christ is God the Father" and that the Holy Spirit somehow replaced the human spirit of Christ?
[gcalvas] Sufficiently explained above. If not, ask VERY SPECIFIC questions as to why you cannot except that which is biblical also. NO ONE can explain the Godhead PERFECTLY, so putting mans labels on me so that you can excuse yourselves for not allowing me in conversations is childish at best and immature at worst.
————————————
#4: Why not answer the questions instead of offering lots of insults? The insults say a lot about the "Anabaptists [sic] Church" religious organization and about you as a member of it, but not a lot about me or my character.
[gcalvas] Because you DESERVE the insults when you call a brother an antichrist! You can assassinate a brothers character by calling him a devil, but you cannot be offended for your lying (that Jesus Christ is not 100% man and God) and mischaracterizations of me as a born-again, blood-bought saint of God who trusted ALONE in the Lord Jesus Christ AS GOD, dying AS A MAN (for God cannot die) repenting of my sins and believing the gospel??
You better be careful how you conduct yourself because what I know is that it shows your ignorance and carnal mind, rather than your spirituality and not wanting to discuss things biblically, but rather like a bunch of baptists POPES demand that I EXPLICITLY follow your understanding when other verses directly indicate a "oneness" of God that is very special to the Godhead and that we should not deny. That is a BALANCED view of the Godhead. I might not be perfect in my explanation, but I try to be biblical.
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Like anytime else in life, we can start over in Christ. But, why waste the time if you still insist of calling me an antichrist and that I do not believe verses such as "1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
I try to explain "are one" in this verse and others, but as I said it does not satisfy your understanding and others because it is more important to keep the three separate (which they are), rather than to keep them one (which they are also), so you can fight some "boogeyman" characterization that does not apply to me.
A Preacher of Righteousness
Dear George,
By addressing you respectfully I am not bidding you Godspeed. I definitely do not do that, as I do not want to be partaker of your idolatry.
Let’s review what you are defending:
“We believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father (John 10:30) manifest in the flesh” is your doctrinal statement.
You have not repented of this idolatry, but have defended it, saying that in a certain sense, “He [Christ] is the Father,” and then citing verses that have absolutely nothing to do with proving Jesus is the Father. Yes, the Son is one with the Father, so seeing the Son you see the Father also. Isaiah 9:6 indicates that Christ has a fatherly care for His people, cf. Hebrews 2:13, “Behold I and the children which God hath given me,” where believers are called the Son’s “children.” This proves nothing at all about the eternal Son being the Person of the eternal Father.
Nobody is asking you to understand the Trinity “perfectly.” What you must do is repent of the idolatry that Jesus Christ is God the Father, something that is taught nowhere in the NT or OT.
You have not even attempted to defend your doctrinal statement’s idolatrous affirmation that the Holy Spirit replaced the human spirit of Jesus Christ. If you really believe Christ is fully Man, then reject your doctrinal statement and renounce your cult.
You asked the weird question about where Jesus Christ is, based on not knowing what the Greek perfect tense is, but that is a question for another day. In His humanity He is in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, and in His Deity He is omnipresent.
You had asked me:
Do you believe if you are not baptised or taking communion in a Baptist church, you are not saved?
I had asked, in response: “[C]ould you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.” I askefd this because your question makes as much sense as asking someone who has just told you he is a Methodist, “Do you believe that Muhammed is the final prophet of God?”
You did not give me any evidence that anyone believes this at all, but said: “Do not put words in my mouth” in response to my question.
So is your answer to my question “There is none: Baptist briders do not believe baptism or communion saves, but believe in justification by faith alone. I just don’t like their ecclesiology”?
You have not answered my question:
When you say "Jesus Christ is the body of God," are you arguing for the further cultic blasphemy that the Father is the soul of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, and Jesus Christ is the body of God?
Please let me know if the “Anabaptists [sic] Church” believes in this cultic blasphemy.
Your view that Jesus Christ is God the Father is not “balanced.” It is blasphemy and idolatry and Antichrist, as false a god as that of the Watchtower Society, something you need to repent of, and evidence of repentance will be your reproving the unfruitful works of darkness in its doctrinal statement and practicing separation.
Perhaps you should examine your organization's doctrinal statement with half the critical judgment you exercise towards me and see if it is sound.
Thanks.
As always you AVOID the BIBLE and continue on with your assertions. I should expect that from you for you have NO FINAL AUTHORITY except the opinions of doctrinal statements that teach what BAPTISTS teach!
That is YOUR final authority, not mine.
My explanations are biblically clear IN CONTEXT. You just want to show yourself as some "big shot, highminded" ecclesiastical know-it-all who follows Baptist teachings and not BIBLE teachings. You have been given the verses that teach the oneness of God, but you refuse to deal with them. Quit avoiding them and exegete them IN CONTEXT.
Jesus Christ IS CALLED "THE Everlasting Father". To deny that is to deny the scriptures. As I have said, I BIBLICALLY deal with it instead of DENYING it as you do. I also teach that "Jesus IS the Christ" as 100% man and 100% God, i.e., God manifest the flesh and he.
I have nothing to repent of doctrinally, "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise."
I see you did not bother to answer ONE question posed to you:
1 John 4:2-3–> The bible teaches that he IS come in the flesh and not HAS come in the flesh, therefore WHERE IS HE?
Remember- A Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and other believe he HAS come, HISTORICALLY.
A Preacher of Righteousness
George,
We are taking the passages in their context, or as you would say, CONTEXT. In John 10:27-30, Jesus said no man plucks the sheep out of his hand, but even greater, no man can pluck them out of his Father's hand. They are not the same person, when Jesus says, that He and the Father are (not is) one. I don't use John 10:30 as "one God," but one in purpose. I don't use it to prove the deity of Christ. There are plenty of verses. However, it is very clear on distinct persons. He is not saying the Father and the Son are the same Person. That is clear in John 10:27-29.
The Isaiah 9:6 reference, and I've preached through every word of Isaiah in a series that took me more than a year to get through, is not saying that Jesus is God the Father. The Hebrew word is found only the one time in the entire Old Testament. "Father" does have different meanings besides giving the person of the Godhead. In this passage, it's obvious in the context (or as you would say, CONTEXT), that it is speaking of the Son. A child is born, a son is given. The word for "Father" used like Papa or Dad is awb in the Hebrew. This isn't that word in Isaiah 9:6. It is the word referring to God the Father later in Isaiah 63:16 and 64:8. That is the word used. It's also used in Malachi 1:6 to refer to God the Father. The word in Isaiah 9:6 is not the familial word, father, but something that relates to Jesus as the source of something, the source of eternity. This looks at Jesus as the creator. It's not saying that He is actually God the Father, which is what you're saying George, which isn't true. It is a falsehood. Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus is the Father. If you deny that in capital letters, it doesn't maker your point stronger.
For 1 John 4:2-3, the verb translated "is come" is a perfect tense verb. In other words, the action is completed in the past with ongoing results. He came in the flesh and those results are ongoing. I don't get your point. Are you saying Jesus did not come historically? Just because the translation in the KJV is "is come" doesn't mean that Jesus didn't come historically. It's a perfect tense verb, the action is completed in the past, that is, historically. The results are ongoing. What's your point? Or as you might say, YOUR POINT?
Hi there, George.
“We believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father (John 10:30) manifest in the flesh” is your doctrinal statement. Isaiah 9:6 does not say that the Son is the Person of God the Father. It teaches that the Son has a fatherly care for His people. It is tell-tale that there is nothing in the New Testament, where the Trinity is the most clearly revealed, that you can go to, but a verse in the Old Testament that you have to take out of context to defend your antichristian doctrinal statement.
You said I "as always … avoid the Bible." Perhaps you missed that I responded to your question with the Bible:
Yes, the Son is one with the Father, so seeing the Son you see the Father also. Isaiah 9:6 indicates that Christ has a fatherly care for His people, cf. Hebrews 2:13, “Behold I and the children which God hath given me,” where believers are called the Son’s “children.” This proves nothing at all about the eternal Son being the Person of the eternal Father.
You have not even attempted to defend your doctrinal statement’s idolatrous affirmation that the Holy Spirit replaced the human spirit of Jesus Christ.
You said I did not answer your question about 1 John 4:2-3. Perhaps you missed that I had replied:
You asked the weird question about where Jesus Christ is, based on not knowing what the Greek perfect tense is, but that is a question for another day. In His humanity He is in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, and in His Deity He is omnipresent.
I wonder if there is another attack on the true humanity of Christ or on the Trinity that you think is hidden in your question about 1 John 4:2-3, based on your misunderstanding of the fact that "is come" is representing an action that took place in the past (the incarnation) with continuing results, namely, the Greek perfect tense. If so, could you explain what you think 1 John 4:2-3 teaches that undermines the classical doctrine of the Trinity and of the humanity of Christ?
You had asked me:
Do you believe if you are not baptised or taking communion in a Baptist church, you are not saved?
I had asked, in response: “[C]ould you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.” I asked this because your question makes as much sense as asking someone who has just told you he is a Methodist, “Do you believe that Muhammed is the final prophet of God?”
You did not give me any evidence that anyone believes this at all, but said: “Do not put words in my mouth” in response to my question.
So is your answer to my question “There is none: Baptist briders do not believe baptism or communion saves, but believe in justification by faith alone. I just don’t like their ecclesiology”?
You have not answered my question:
When you say "Jesus Christ is the body of God," are you arguing for the further cultic blasphemy that the Father is the soul of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, and Jesus Christ is the body of God?
Please let me know if the “Anabaptists [sic] Church” believes in this cultic blasphemy.
Perhaps you should examine your organization's doctrinal statement with half the critical judgment you exercise towards me and see if it is sound.
"For 1 John 4:2-3, the verb translated "is come" is a perfect tense verb. In other words, the action is completed in the past with ongoing results. He came in the flesh and those results are ongoing. I don't get your point. Are you saying Jesus did not come historically? Just because the translation in the KJV is "is come" doesn't mean that Jesus didn't come historically. It's a perfect tense verb, the action is completed in the past, that is, historically. The results are ongoing. What's your point? Or as you might say, YOUR POINT?"
Of course he came historically, even a Catholic believes that! You have 1 Timothy 3:16, Galatians 4:4, 2 Corinthians 5:19 as well as all the gospels that teach you historical concerning his life, death, burial and resurrection.
Your explanation that "is come in the flesh" has to do with results ongoing based on his historical incarnation is a weak exegesis of the scriptures. It is obviously true, but not what John is teaching in these passages. The overall context of 1 John has to do with the love of God in a believer.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
"Believe not every spirit- v1" has to do with the spirit of man and how does he know the Spirit of God (v2) since there are many false prophets that are gone out? Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh is simply that the Holy Ghost that resides in a born again believer (Christ IN you, the hope of glory- See also Colossians 2:10-13) and that any man that confesses by his spirit that Jesus Christ IS come for he manifests himself through saved individuals who are part of the body of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:8-11, Romans 6:1-4, Colossians 1:24, Ephesians 5:30, etc.)
As I told Ross, most major Christian apostate denominations believe the historical fact, but only a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh can know the difference that he IS come "manifest in the flesh" and is found in ONLY those who repent and believe the gospel, who are part of the body of Christ, therefore "members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones".
Where is Jesus Christ? He is found today in believers (is come) who are part of the body of Christ.
A Preacher of Righteousness
"When you say "Jesus Christ is the body of God," are you arguing for the further cultic blasphemy that the Father is the soul of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, and Jesus Christ is the body of God?"
Get over yourself, Brother Ross. Was not man made in Gods image according to Genesis 1:27? Is not man body, soul and spirit according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23? Did not the TRIUNE (I wish I could make that a 128 point font!) God form man in Genesis 2:7?
A man is a (1) a body (formed MAN- his FLESH from the dust), (2) a spirit (breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of life), (3) who then became a living soul. Please explain to me how he is made in OUR image (God's image) as a TRI-PART being?
Would it not make sense that the Father, Son and Spirit are REPRESENTED in TRI-part man as (1) man's body is represented by the Son, (2) the breath of life, giving man's spirit is represented by the Spirit, and (3) the soul of man is represented by the Father?
What is so difficult for you to understand that SIMPLE concept??
Cultic teaching???? Are you losing your mind? Do you HATE a brother that much?
You treat Muslims and lost people MUCH better than you treat a brother in Christ, whether you know it or not!
A Preacher of Righteousness
"The Preachers",
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. – John 1:18
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. – 1 John 2:22-23
George,
I'll let Thomas answer the last comment of yours, because you directed it to him, but I have a very difficult time knowing what you are talking about in your comment to me. I reread it three times and it was frustrating, because it was so unclear what you were saying that I wanted to give up on it.
Here's what I think you're saying. 1 John 4 means Jesus IS come in a present tense, that is, Jesus right now is indwelling believers, that is what it means by IS come (your capital), who are the body of Christ, a spiritual body. There are other things there that are questionable, but it seems like that.
Kent wrote:
"1 John 4 means Jesus IS come in a present tense, that is, Jesus right now is indwelling believers, that is what it means by IS come (your capital), who are the body of Christ, a spiritual body."
What you say is true in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:44) and also true that he indwells believers today, but I am saying that what John taught is what Paul also taught is more than that. It is the manifestation of Jesus Christ in the flesh today within believers of the body of Christ. Since "we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh", the lost world today cannot see "the indwelling Spirit of God", but should see the manifestation of that Spirit in the flesh of a Christian who is "crucified with Christ".
He is come in the flesh. Where is he? The lost world should see Jesus Christ today in the life of a believers body who abides, lives holy to please God for "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God" in that "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts".
A Preacher of Righteousness
I find it interesting that this organisation is headquartered in Africa, since parts of the doctrinal statement read like English may not be the first language of the author.
What a confused mess. They make a big deal about the "King of Jacob" Bible (Article IV.1.2 and the front of their "What We Believe" page), talk about "England exerts its unholy command and mandated imprimatur" etc over the Authorized Version (sic, in England it's spelled "Authorised") of 1611 (it is the Crown Estate, not the nation, that holds Crown Copyright), but their Church Covenant (Article III) says "the King James Bible" is their authority. So which is it, "King of Jacob" or "King James"? And if they are one and the same, are they different from the "Authorized Version"? If different, how? Are the words the same? If the words are the same, they are the same, if the words are different they are different. And if not different, how can they say that the King of Jacob Bible is free from copyright while the AV is copyrighted?
There are contradictions and confusions everywhere. You'd have to pick and choose what statements you want to believe, I guess. There's enough truth in there that someone could actually get saved, and enough error for lots of people to be lost.
It doesn't read like careful deception to me, there are too many errors and contradictions.
It reads like haphazard throwing stuff together that sounded good in reaction to something they thought was bad. Whoever wrote it was certainly not apt to teach, at least not apt to teach in the English language. Whether they set out to be badly disguised wolves or whether it's just a confused mishmash from some badly misguided sheep, they shouldn't be teaching this nonsense. Either way, the result is fertile ground for the devil.
Hi there, George. The image of God in believers is righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) and it is being progressively renewed in believers, Colossians 3:10:
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him
In a broader sense unconverted men have rationality and other features that distinguish them from animals, and have those remnants of the image of God. Man being in the image of God has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with God having a body, soul, and spirit.
The claim that the Holy Spirit is the “spirit” part of your god is just a confusion based on the use of the same word. The word ruach / pneuma / Spirit is used for the wind as well, but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit is the wind part of God.
The claim that Jesus Christ is the body part of your god would require that Jesus Christ was eternally human, if you really believe man being in the image of God means God is body, soul, and spirit. Do you think Christ was human before His incarnation? If so, you are denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh at one point in time from Mary with continuing results, the teaching of 1 John 4:1-3. If you really believe the second Person of the Trinity is the eternal body part of your god, then you are an antichrist according to 1 John 4:1-3.
The claim that the Father is the soul part of your god is just ridiculous foolishness. Please provide even one verse in Scripture that states, hints, or even breathes the shadow of an implication that the Person of God the Father is the soul part of God. This is idolatry and blasphemy.
Your allegorical “interpretation” of 1 John 4:1-3, if one is to take it seriously, is also antichrist because it would deny that Jesus Christ has permanently become flesh by changing the passage to somehow mean that because the Holy Spirit is in believers they are Christ in the flesh. Hopefully you simply do not know what you are talking about and do not actually believe what you are saying.
Compared to your blasphemy and idolatry in defending modalism, rejecting the Trinity, and rejecting the true incarnation of Jesus Christ, I really don’t care if you slander Baptist briders, just like I don’t care if you hold a bizzare and unscriptural view of the KJV, but I want to point something out. I have asked multiple times the following:
You had asked me:
Do you believe if you are not baptised or taking communion in a Baptist church, you are not saved?
I had asked, in response: “[C]ould you please find a published document or confession of faith by a self-confessed Baptist Brider that says a person is going to hell if he is not baptized or takes communion in a Baptist church? Thanks.” I asked this because your question makes as much sense as asking someone who has just told you he is a Methodist, “Do you believe that Muhammed is the final prophet of God?”
You did not give me any evidence that anyone believes this at all, but said: “Do not put words in my mouth” in response to my question.
So is your answer to my question “There is none: Baptist briders do not believe baptism or communion saves, but believe in justification by faith alone. I just don’t like their ecclesiology”?
You have refused to answer. Remember that stubbornness is also iniquity and idolatry. Stubbornness in not admitting you are committing slander is very bad. However, stubbornness about not repenting of your modalism and false god will lead you to hell. George, in love I urge you repent of idolatry and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hi George, if the Baptist church you left to join the "Anabaptist Church" cult was a Biblical one, then you should consider if the following applies to you:
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Thanks for clarifying, George, that your religious organization believes in a god that is eternally body, soul, and spirit. I have added that blasphemy to the text of the post so people can be aware that your cult believes it, and looking through the doctrinal statement again, I can see how it crops up here and there.
George,
I don't get how what you've written about 1 John 4:1-3 has to do with what has been written so far about the errors in the "anabaptist" doctrinal statement about the nature of God, but 1 John 4:1-3 is not saying what you are saying that it does. I've never heard what you are writing in my entire life, nor have I ever heard it from someone else. It reads like a private interpretation, a personal invention. I'm not saying that as an insult. So what is 1 John 4:1-3 saying?
First, "spirits" are the source of all false doctrine. Every false doctrine arises from spirits, has a spiritual beginning, like the Apostle Paul calls false doctrines, "doctrines of devils." George, you said that "spirit" "has to do with the spirit of man and how does he know the Spirit of God." The false prophets do not originate their false doctrines, so the "spirits" are being tested, the true originators of the false doctrine. This isn't the testing of the spirits of the men who are false prophets. The spirits behind the teaching of the false prophets are being tested, and it is a bit of a play on words, because there is the Spirit of God, the source of truth, and the other spirits, which are the source of error. Every spirit is not the Holy Spirit. The spirit that is the Holy Spirit is the one Who confesses the true doctrine about Jesus Christ.
The confession of the Holy Spirit through a true teacher that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not a confession, as you say George, that the actual flesh of Jesus Christ is literally showing up in the body of Christ through believers either local or universal. It is not. What the verse is saying is that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and continues to be in the flesh. This is communicated by the perfect tense verb — completed action in the past with ongoing results. The attack on the nature of Jesus Christ by the spirits behind the false prophets is in the denial of the deity of Christ and in the denial of the humanity of Christ, either/or or both.
A test of validity of any teacher come from God, receiving his teaching from the Holy Spirit, which would be from the New Testament, is a true, scriptural doctrine of Christ. Jesus Christ came God in human flesh and continues God in human flesh in the present.
1 John 4:1-3 has nothing to do with the indwelling of Christ or the nature of the church. The real physical body of Christ is not the church. The real physical body of Christ is in heaven with the Father at His right hand. His actual body is not on earth. "Body of Christ" is a metaphor through the NT. It is not equal to Christ's actual body. The presence of Christ is a spiritual presence, His omnipresence.
Dear Bro Gleason,
Thanks for the comment. I agree that someone who is a weak true believer and is poorly instructed might get involved in this group, but the longer they stayed in it and stuck around the more the Holy Spirit would be working in them to leave as they grew to understand its false teachings.
To Ross,
Good bye. As a brother, you are an arrogant fool not worthy of any more discussion on any subject. You are a spiritual immature babe in Christ. Reminds me of myself many years ago. Be not wise in your own conceits. Grow up.
I will leave it to the Lord Jesus Christ to sort it out in heaven.
To Kent,
You might not agree with me in a few points, but I appreciate your way of handling the matter, though I agree with much of what you say with the only real difference being that the indwelling Spirit of God in a believer manifests itself through the crucified flesh because of Gal 2:20, 6:14 and the others I mentioned. Being baptized into his death unto newness of life (Romans 6:3-4) is that life which others can see, for they cannot see the indwelling Spirit.
To continue any further is unprofitable for all.
A Preacher of Righteousness
Thanks, George, for validating that the content of the post is exactly accurate.
Christ will indeed sort things out on the day of judgment, but those who are of the antichrist will be in hell, not heaven, with all idolators. Insults will be no substitute for repentance then, and you will be even more accountable because of those who in love spent their valuable time warning and admonishing you. Unless you repent in this life, you will remember, like the rich man in Luke 16, this conversation to your sorrow for all eternity. God is not willing that any should perish. You still have the chance to forsake idolatry and live eternally, although you only will do so if God permit (Hebrews 6:3).