The Trail of Blood, by J. M. Carroll, which we commended in a recent Friday’s post, contains the following quote by Roman Catholic cardinal and papal legate to the Council of Trent, Stanislaus Hosius:
Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:
Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers. (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112-113).
This Hosius quote is widely reproduced in other Baptist literature contemporary with Carroll. However, many non-Baptists have attacked it as illegitimate. For example, Catholics like to claim that Hosius never said anything like this. Other sources also claim Hosius never said it. Even some sincere Baptists–who, unfortunately, clearly did not know Latin–have said he never said it.
One of the problems with the quotation is that standards for citation in past centuries were not the same as they are now. “Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113” is very hard to trace. Furthermore, when Carroll wrote the Trail of Blood, citations did not necessarily have to include “…,” bracketed letters when capitalization was changed, and so on; it was acceptable and widely practiced to slightly paraphrase quotations. What Carroll and many Baptists in his day wrote was a proper citation back then, but it should be more properly cited now–that is, if it is legitimate. Is it?The answer is Yes! The Roman Catholic cardinal and papal legate to the Council of Trent Stanislaus Hosius definitely did make a statement to this effect. Baptists should have no qualms whatever with citing this leading Roman Catholic as evidence of their ancient heritage, far, far before Protestantism. Those who deny that he ever said it do not seem to have taken the time to investigate the matter properly or were ignorant of Latin. (Perhaps a good reason to learn Latin, no?) What they should do, though, is cite the quote in a manner that suits the 21st century. Here is an accurate citation of Cardinal Hosius–this is the quote to use:
For if so be, that as every man is most ready to suffer death for the faith of his sect, so his faith should be judged most perfect and most sure, there shall be no faith more certain and true, than is the Anabaptists’, seeing there be none now, or have been before time for the space of these thousand and two hundred years, who have been more cruelly punished, or that have more stoutly, steadfastly, cheerfully taken their punishment, yea or have offered themselves of their own accord to death, were it never so terrible and grievous. . . . If you will have regard to the number, it is like that in multitude they would swarm above all other, if they were not grievously plagued, and cut off with the knife of persecution.
This translation comes from Richard Shacklock’s translation of Hosius’ Latin in a work entitled The Hatchet of Heresies: A Most Excellent Treaties of the begynnyng of heresyes in oure tyme, compiled by the Reuerend Father in God Stanislaus Hosius, etc. (Antwerp: Aeg. Diest, 1565; Ann Arbor: Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership, 2011), 44-49.You can find the original Latin Shacklock is translating in Stanislai Hosii S. R. E. Cardinalis, Episcopi Varmiensis, In Concilio Tridentino Legati Opera Omnia Hactenus Edita, In Unum Corpus Collecta (Venice: Apud Franciscum Francisci, 1632), 203, sec. De Haeresibus Nostri Temporis. Here is a screenshot of the Latin text
If you know Latin, you can see the quotation near the top of the page.So the quotation about Baptist succession by Roman Catholic cardinal Stanislaus Hosius is absolutely accurate, and he certainly did say it. Those who deny that he said it failed to research the matter properly.If you would like to read the quote in greater context, or see links to the places where you can get Shacklock’s translation of Hosius or Hosius’s original Latin, please read my article “Famous Baptist Succession / History Quotes in Context” by clicking here. I supply lots and lots of context. So you can use the Cardinal Hosius quote–shout it from the housetops. Just cite it correctly so people do not have a reason to doubt its accuracy.Scripture teaches Baptist church polity and Scripture teaches an actual succession of churches from the first Baptist church, organized by Christ from those baptized by the first Baptist–John the Baptist–the greatest man who had lived other than Christ up to that time (Matthew 11:11). External historical data, such as the testimony of Cardinal Hosius to Baptist succession, support the infallible truth of Scripture, which proves that Baptist churches are the churches of Jesus Christ, founded by the Savior during His earthly ministry and preserved from that time until the present day. All other religious organizations that claim the name of Christian, unfortunately, are more akin in God’s eyes to the Roman Catholic whore of Babylon (Revelation 17) and her Protestant daughters (Revelation 17:5) than to the pure bride of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5). If you are reading this and have not been born again, you should immediately repent and believe the gospel, being justified by faith alone apart from works. Then immediately attend, be baptized into and serve the Triune God in a faithful independent, unaffiliated Baptist church–the kind Christ started in the first century, the kind for which He loved and died and His bride (Ephesians 5:25). If, by His grace, you love Christ, you must and will keep His commandments (John 14:15).
Some of the old quote citations can make you want to pull out your hair trying to locate the original. As you show here, it is worth the effort! Good work. Thanks.
Thanks, Bro Vaughn! Trust it can encourage the Lord’s churches.
Amazing thank you!!
Thanks, Justin!
We can believe what God promises about church succession.
Good quotation. Here are a few more that deserves mention, which you can feel free to look up, and are given in no particular order:
Boyer, Abrege de l’histoire des Vaudois, p. 23. (1691)
“Mais o merveille, Dieu par sa sage providence a conserve la purete de l’Evangile dans les Vallees de Piemont, depuis le tems des Apotres jusques a nous.”
This translates from French as:
“O marvelous! God, by his wise providence has preserved the purity of the Gospel in the Valleys of Piedmont, from the times of the Apostles to our times.”
The author and manuscript compiler Theodore Beza also had a few things to say about the churches that existed in Piedmont and their later efforts to translate the whole Bible into French. These remarks can be found in his book “Histoire ecclesiastique des Eglises reformes au Royaume de France” Volume 1, pp 38-39,52-54,162. I won’t bore you here with too many quotes, but below is one part of Beza’s book translated into English:
“The Vaudois, who are so called, from time immemorial in opposition to the abuses of the Roman Church, have been so pursued, not by the sword of the word of God, but by every kind of violence and cruelty, joined with a million slanders and false accusations, forcing them to expand everywhere or to have little, wandering through the deserts like poor wild beasts; always having the Lord preserve and keep their abode, that notwithstanding the rage of the world, they are maintained, as they still are maintained in three countries well removed from each other: some in Calabria, others in Boismé and surrounding countries, and the others in valleys of Piedmont, which have been scattered through the districts of Provence for about two hundred and seventy years, mainly in Merindol, Cabrieres, Lormarin and surrounding neighborhoods.” (ibid. p52.)
According to Samuel Morland’s famous book on this same population of people, at least some of them held to believer’s baptism.
Articles 12 and 13 in one of their ancient confessions, given in Morland’s book, state that they only recognize Baptism and the Lord’s supper, and that these two “are signs of the holy thing, or visible forms of the invisible grace, [and we] account it good that the faithful sometimes use said signs or visible forms, if it may be done. However, we believe and hold, that the above-said faithful may be saved without receiving the signs aforesaid, in case they have no place nor any means to use them.”
Earlier sources also report the presence of believer’s baptism among the populace of nearby areas, especially before the time that the Inquisition was instituted there in 1229.
For instance, in Patrologia Latina, Vol. 189, col. 728-729, we have the tract called “Epistola Sive Tractatus adversus Petrobrusianos Haereticos” which deals with the “Petrobrusian” Christians, and was written in Latin around 1146 AD.
The latin citation above translates as follows:
“They say, Christ sending his disciples to preach, says in the Gospel: ‘Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved. But he that believeth not, shall be damned.’ From these words of our Saviour it is plain that none can be saved, unless he believe, and be baptized; that is, have christian faith and receive baptism; Not one of these, but both together equally in both respects, does save: so that infants [infantes], though they be by you baptized, yet since by reason of their age they cannot believe, are not saved. It is therefore an idle and vain thing, for you to wash persons with water, at such a time when you may indeed cleanse their skin from dirt in a human manner, but not purge their souls from sin: But we do stay till the proper time of faith; and when a person is capable to know his God, and believe in him, then we do, not as you charge us, re-baptize him, but baptize him; for he is so to be accounted, as not yet baptized, who is not washed with that baptism, by which sins are done away.”
A direct quote from some apparent members of this population of Christians can be found apparent from Perrin in his original book, “Histoire des Vaudois”, written in 1618, pp. 129-134.
“In the same parcel of writings, containing the process against the Vaudois, we find one drawn up against Francis Gerondin [François de Gerondin] and Peter Jacob [Pierre de Iacob], two barbs, or pastors, who were taken, about the hill in the side of the plain, in 1492. Being asked the reason why the sect of the Vaudois multiplied and increased so fast, and for a long time together had spread itself into so many places, this monk wrote down the answer of Gerondin after this manner, that the dissolute and debauched lives of the priests was the cause of it; and because the cardinals were covetous, proud, and luxurious, it being manifest to all, that there was neither pope, cardinal, nor bishop, who kept not their concubines, and few or none who were not guilty of unnatural crimes; and therefore it was an easy matter for the pastors of the Vaudois to persuade the people, that the religion of such scandalous persons could never be good, since the fruits of it were so bad.
“That persecution was extremely severe; for the Vaudois being condemned as heretics by the Inquisitor, Ponce the Counseller, and Oronce the Judge, hurried them to the fire, without suffering their appeal. That which increased the number of the persecuted was, that whosoever did any ways intercede for them, though it were child for the father, or the father for the child, he was presently committed to prison, and his indictment drawn up as a favourer of heretics.”
Some interesting quotes here, all worth checking out if you get the chance. I might bring some more later if this picqued anyone’s interest.
Thanks; they look very good. It would indeed be good to check them in context,
Hello, I have a question regarding thus quote by Hosius. Can you direct me to exactly where within the text he mentions that the Anabaptistes date back 1200 years? Or is this based off calculations such as the mention of 400 years before Bernard (b.1090) or others?
Hello Ryan! I don’t understand what more you need. Please note the references in the text:
The Hatchet of Heresies: A Most Excellent Treaties of the begynnyng of heresyes in oure tyme, compiled by the Reuerend Father in God Stanislaus Hosius, etc. (Antwerp: Aeg. Diest, 1565; Ann Arbor: Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership, 2011), 44-49.You can find the original Latin Shacklock is translating in Stanislai Hosii S. R. E. Cardinalis, Episcopi Varmiensis, In Concilio Tridentino Legati Opera Omnia Hactenus Edita, In Unum Corpus Collecta (Venice: Apud Franciscum Francisci, 1632), 203, sec. De Haeresibus Nostri Temporis
Thanks.
The problem is that I can find the section that says “were it not that the Baptists have grievously tormented and cut off with the knife” within the translated text, the next part does not say “during the past twelve hundred years.”
Perhaps it is simply petty, and I should let it go, but I’ve presented these links to someone who has read them and insists it is Baptist revisionism. He questions why so many other sects have definitive historical proof of their existence dating 400AD, but despite our claims we cannot.
The portion that actually says “thousand and two hundred years” kinda suggests it is comparing the Anabaptists to everyone else persecuted during that span of years rather than saying the Anabaptists we in existence for that entire span of years.
I believe what is presented, but I’m looking for better understanding I guess
Bettering our understanding is good. Amen Ryan. I personally don’t know Latin, but Brother Ross certainly does.
My take, we have to begin with scripture. There is no promise from God in scripture that we will have perfect Church history. This is a supposition that relies on extra biblical evidence first.
If you’re born again, you have God’s Spirit permanently indwelling you and He will open your understanding of scripture. You will have the assurance of faith and perfect peace about it. You will accept from God’s Word that the Church as described in the New Testament will continue because it is kept by the power of God as He said it would be in Matthew 16:18.
With this in mind, we look to history by faith for supporting evidence and not the other way around. The Just shall live by faith. God bless.
Dear Ryan,
I’m glad you want to be careful with what you cite. Here is the quote:
For if so be, that as every man is most ready to suffer death for the faith of his sect, so his faith should be judged most perfect and most sure, there shall be no faith more certain and true, than is the Anabaptists’, seeing there be none now, or have been before time for the space of these thousand and two hundred years, who have been more cruelly punished, or that have more stoutly, steadfastly, cheerfully taken their punishment, yea or have offered themselves of their own accord to death, were it never so terrible and grievous. . . . If you will have regard to the number, it is like that in multitude they would swarm above all other, if they were not grievously plagued, and cut off with the knife of persecution.
If you want to verify the context, please click on the link in the post to the original document. I believe it is very clear that Hosius is saying that Anabaptists had existed for 1200 years before that time. By all means read the pages before and after the quote to verify it.
Thanks.
The infallible evidence of Baptist succession, however, is Scripture, which promises it:
https://faithsaves.net/great-commission/
There are also lots of quotes from various writers who recognize Baptist succession. Please check out here:
https://faithsaves.net/baptist-historical-succession/
for more.
Thanks.
I very much appreciate your response. I feel that perhaps the punctuation used within that sentence makes it seem less clear. I sometimes have a habit of seeing things from one perspective but then also another that allows me to see how someone else may view it. It’s terribly annoying haha
However, I found within the text something less deniable I was able to use. Hosius says “For the Anabaptistes do speak more braggly, , and do more stoutly all these things, and have done it many years ago, before any man heard tell of the Sacramentaries.”
I had to do some research and found that the Sacrementaries were the books used for mass and were first created in the 300s. So obviously that would be 1200 years before the time of Hosius.
Again, I appreciate your help.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this. I am not sure I would have been able to find the source without your website. I am sharing this with others. Thanks!