Let me preface this post by saying that I believe whether or not one agrees with what I am saying should not cause division in a church. Donald Trump divides the country, but he should not divide churches. If you are united to Christ by faith you are my brother in Him, and if you are a faithful member of a true church you are in Christ’s body, and I have Christian love for you, whether or not you agree with what I say about politics below.
I have Always Voted Republican as a Conservative
In 2016, I voted for Donald Trump. In 2020, I voted for Donald Trump. In every presidential election since I have been able to vote, and in every other election, I have consistently voted for Republican candidates. Before the 2020 election, I wrote a blog post about why Christians should vote for Donald Trump because of religious liberty, abortion, and free speech.
In 2016 Donald Trump won 46% of the vote to squeak by in the electoral college a few days after Hillary Clinton was hit with criminal charges. Although I found his personality and character abhorrent, I voted for him in 2016 because of the Supreme Court. In 2020, I also voted for him because of the Supreme Court. I also though that, despite the many self-inflicted wounds he gave himself, with good conservative advisors he did a better job governing than I thought he would do. I was very thankful that, with the help of Mitch McConnell and a Republican-controlled Senate, he appointed three justices to the Supreme Court–appointments that led to the overturning of Roe v. Wade. That was very, very, very good.
Many of the media attacks on Trump were baseless. He never colluded with Russia, for example. Many other attacks were based on taking seriously what he said when, very often, even Trump himself does not pay attention to what he says (not a good idea when you are the most powerful elected figure on earth and the commander in chief of the world’s most powerful military).
My political views are extremely conservative. Based on Scripture, they support a very limited government and are very socially conservative. I believe the US Constitution is a very good document for running a government in this fallen world and wish that it were followed much more closely than it is.
Donald Trump Will Not Peacefully Cede Power
So why am I not going to vote for Donald Trump again-certainly not in the Republican primary, and also not in the general election, if he wins the primary? It is not because of his horrible character. It is not because there are good reasons to wonder if what is good for Trump is more important to him than what is good for the United States. It is not because he constantly attacks everyone and alienates larger and larger and larger groups of people and even people as loyal as his own vice president. It is not because he has now been convicted of battery and sexual crimes. These are very big problems-definitely far more than enough to make me vote for someone else in the Republican primary, but in the general election I am willing to overlook them. It is not because of some secret sympathy for the socialistic, big-government policies of the Democrat party. I am very concerned about the judges Democrats put on the Supreme Court and other courts and I see “vote for Trump because of the judges” as the single strongest argument to vote for him, if he prevails in the Republican primary (which I fervently hope he does not). I am very concerned about the way the Democrat party is willing to persecute churches, Christian business owners, and Christians in general who stand for what Scripture teaches on morality.
So what was the final straw for me? I think there is a strong likelihood that Donald Trump will not cede power peacefully if he loses an election. I believe in the American republic, not in a dictatorship by a Republican.
I did not think that Donald Trump would do what he did after losing the 2020 election. Pursuing all legal avenues to try to get the most votes you can? Fine. But his refusal-for hours-to call off the rioters on January 6 was despicable, even when it was obvious that things had turned violent. It is also perfectly obvious that the Vice President never has had the power to unilaterally overturn election results. If the Vice President of the party in power can unilaterally reject election results, we do not have a republic, but a dictatorship. It does not even need to be stated that the idea that the VP can do this is absolutely indefensible constitutionally.
Let’s say that it is far more likely that the reason Donald Trump was unwilling to admit that he lost the election by over 7,000,000 votes is that Trump can never admit he was wrong than that the theories he was spouting off in public, but which even his own lawyers would not defend in court, were true. That would be a huge problem, but maybe if he had just made stuff up to support his ego and left it at that, perhaps I would still vote for him again.
However, it is now years later, and Trump is still making the same Constitutionally fatal claims. He still claims that Mike Pence could have unilaterally overturned the 2020 election results. That means the end of the republic and the start of a tyranny. What did Trump do in his very first campaign rally? He put up a video and a song made by criminals who were justly put in prison for their crimes on January 6. He showed them violently fighting the police. He tried to put them in a good light as they were breaking and smashing and beating police officers and trying to get in to violently place him in power. He did not put up a video of the (imaginary) people who (in an alternate universe) just happened to wander into the Capitol as tourists or something and then were arrested and imprisoned unjustly. No, his video showed the rioters fighting with the police, and was glorifying the rioters as if they were righteous. Note that the video from the January 6 committee here:
And Trump’s campaign video here, where the singers are imprisoned January 6 criminals:
have some of the same footage of rioters fighting police (see 1:14-1:30 in), although Trump puts the violent criminals up for a shorter period of time. Trump embraces people who wanted Mike Pence executed for treason although he does not (at this point, at least, but you never know what he will do next) himself call for the execution of his own former Vice President for treason.
Trump said that he would accept the 2016 results–if he won. He lost in 2020 and did not accept the results. If he loses in 2024, there could be a lot of bloodshed. If he wins in 2024-something that is very, very unlikely-there is no reason to think that he would voluntarily cede power at the end of his term. He could come up with some reason-any reason-to retain power. The Vice President being able to unilaterally overturn results; the election allegedly having fraud that is worse than any third-world country; Dominion voting machines changing millions of votes; you name it. If Donald Trump can claim (even before results are in!) that the long shot conservative Republican Larry Elder lost in California to the sitting Democrat governer, Gavin Newsom, by fraud, then he can claim any election he wants was lost by fraud.
I have little confidence Trump would voluntarily cede power if he lost an election. Furthermore, anyone that was part of his cabinet in a second Trump term would have to be an almost cultic “yes” man. He would have to be a bobble head agreeing with any Trump claims. Trump claimed (in his January 6 speech) that in 2020 he “won in a landslide” but is not now in office because of “the most corrupt election in … history, maybe of the world,” far worse than “third-world countries,” and “everybody knows it.” The 2020 US election was not worse than elections such as the 1927 Liberian election where the winner gained 243,000 votes from the 15,000 registered voters, the 1964 election in Haiti where the president won 99.9% of the vote, there were no opponents, and all the ballots were pre-marked “yes,” or the elections in Equitorial Guinea between 1990-2020 where the president got 98% of the vote at a minimum, with some areas giving him over 103%. Everyone knows that the 2020 election was worse than such corrupt elections, according to Trump. Instead of having advisors like his courageous and moral Vice President, Mike Pence, Trump would have a cabinet of Kool-Aid drinkers who would actually help him to retain power after an election loss and would parrot whatever nutty claims he made.
I am not going to vote for Trump again because I do not have confidence he would cede power. Do you have confidence he would cede power if he lost?
Why It Does Not Matter That I Will Not Vote For Donald Trump
Despite the great danger that Trump would not cede power peacefully if he were reelected, it does not matter very much that I will not vote for him. Why is that?
1.) I am in California, so my vote does not matter in a presidential election. California is almost certain to give its electoral votes to the Democrat candidate, and if a Republican won the electoral votes of California, he would not need them, for he would already have won other closer states in a landslide. Were I in a swing state, I would have to think harder about not voting for Trump.
2.) However, although it would be a harder call, even if I were in a swing state I would not vote for Trump because of the threat he is to the Constitution. Even in this case, though, my vote would not matter. Why? Because Trump is unelectable. He lost a winnable election in 2020 through self-inflicted wounds, and after January 6 he was no longer a viable candidate for president. He is never going to get the 46% of the vote that he got in 2016 again-much less the higher percentage he would need to win against someone less repulsive than Hillary Clinton a few days after she was indited. Joe Biden, the Democrat Party, and the mainstream media will work very hard to make Trump the Republican candidate in 2024 because they know he is not electable. Donald Trump turned what should have been a red wave in 2022 into a red trickle, even though he was not on the ballot. People do not want someone who supports violent riots, injuries to hundreds of Capitol police officers, and the end of the republic for a dictatorship where the Vice President can unilaterally overturn results. Running on a pro-January 6 riot platform is bonkers. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would wonder if the Democrats were secretly paying off Trump to run on something like that. The electorate does not want a candidate who justifies violent attempts at revolution and whom a jury has found guilty of sexual assault. If Republicans nominate someone creepy enough, they can even lose Senate races in Alabama. (Note that Roy Moore was only credibly accused of sexual crimes–Trump has not only been accused, but been found guilty by a jury of them. Roy Moore lost deep, deep, deep Red Alabama. How badly will Trump lose?) Trump has alienated a large portion of the Republican electorate but he unites the Democrats. He alienates moderates and far, far more than half the voting population. A vote for Donald Trump in the Republican primary is a vote for a united Democrat government that controls the House and Senate–probably with large majorities–and the presidency in 2024. It is a vote for a Democrat president who will do everything he can to get Roe v. Wade back. The question is not whether Trump can get the 46% he got in 2016. The question is whether he would be able to get 40%, or 35%, or a number even lower than that. The question is whether the Democrats would win in a huge landslide that can introduce constitutional amendments or just a big landslide that can abolish the filibuster and appoint radical leftist tyrants to the Supreme Court.
So the fact that I would not vote for Donald Trump in the 2024 general election will not matter–if he is at the top of the Republican ticket, the election will not even be close.
However, in the Republican primary my vote definitely WILL matter. I will be voting to keep Trump away from the Republican nomination, so that limited, Constitutional government, religious liberty, and other incredible blessings here in the United States may continue, by God’s grace. While I think Mike Pence would be even better than Ron DeSantis, I will plan to vote for whoever appears to have the best chance at keeping Donald Trump away from winning the nomination, at least if it is still in play when I have a chance to vote in the primary, Lord willing.
As a postscript, let me say again that I believe whether or not one agrees with what I am saying should not cause division in a church. Donald Trump divides the country, but he should not divide churches. If you are united to Christ by faith you are my brother in Him, and if you are a faithful member of a true church you are in Christ’s body, and I have Christian love for you, whether or not you agree with what I say about politics in this post.
–TDR
I take issue with your ignorance about J6. sure there were some who did wrong, but at least acknowledge the two tiers justice system that puts these people through way stiffer punishment than BLM rioters.
Also, it is very ignorant to act like this sexual assault lawsuit was not politically motivated. It was 30 years ago. You think NY will give a fair trial? Absolutely not. This was a witch hunt and you should at least acknowledge that.
Agreed. It’s hard to take Thomas seriously when he seems to so credulously believe everything that the MSM says about each of these things.
Hi Tim,
Maybe you don’t want to put the time in, but perhaps you could be more detailed. You have the intellectual capability to do more than make it a shot against Thomas. Thanks!
Dear Anonymous,
BLM rioters should be punished severely.
If someone was running for President on a pro-BLM riot platform that person would have a very hard time winning and I would vote against him. Same for someone running on a pro-January 6 riot platform.
Whether the lady that instigated the lawsuit was politically motivated or not, a jury found Trump guilty of sexual assault. That is not going to help you win a race for president. And you can’t just say “the trial was in New York so Trump really wasn’t guilty.” That isn’t evidence.
Nominating someone who is found guilty of sexual assault is foolish. But I would even possibly be willing to vote for him with that. But when he avows, over and over and over for years, that the Vice President can unilaterally overturn election results, and runs on a pro-J6 riot platform, I have no confidence he would cede power after losing. That is what broke the camel’s back for me. He isn’t just saying another ridiculous thing. He actually means this one.
Note that Roy Moore was only credibly accused (with the timing of the release very politically motivated) of sexual crimes–Trump has not only been accused, but been found guilty by a jury of them. Roy Moore lost deep, deep, deep Red Alabama. How badly will Trump lose?
We can say “it isn’t fair that Bill Clinton can get away with this sort of thing!” and nominate Trump, and lose very, very badly, and then have more tyrants on the Supreme Court, more open-borders lawlessness, more assaults on religious liberty, etc., or we can nominate someone who hasn’t been convicted of sexual assault, and who hasn’t alienated most American voters, and who isn’t defending rioters who wanted to overturn elections, and who isn’t committed to the Vice President being able to unilaterally overturn elections. Is this a hard call?
Just to be clear I am not a cult follower of Trump. I will be voting for Desantis in the primary. However, if it is Trump as the nominee I will of course vote for him. Let’s do a little comparison.
Trump.
1. Loves America.
2. Pro Life
3. Pro Second Amendment
4. Defender of religious freedom
5. Appoints constitutional conservative judges
6. Defends the border
7. Has many good advisors (some bad)
8. Is against WEF and globalism
9. Against the Trans movement
10. Tough on foreign enemies.
Biden
1. He loves profiting off Americans
2. Pro abortion
3. Wants to take away guns.
4. Threatens religious liberties
5. Appoints activist and anti god judges
6. Open border which are being infiltrated with Chinese nationals.
7. No good advisors
8. Globalist elite in connection with all the evil leaders of the world.
9. Pro trans. (Men in woman’s restrooms and locker rooms)
10. In the back pocket of foreign governments. As we saw this week.
Many more comparisons could be added. I encourage others to add to this list. If you the choices are Trump or Biden (or Newsom) then to not vote for Trump is to vote for Biden. Again I hope we have Desantis to vote for and not Trump but I find your reasoning very illogical.
Dear Anonymous #2,
I agree with the good things you put on your list. I can understand someone thinking that the Republic would be able to withstand a 2nd Trump administration that refuses to cede power, although I disagree.
It won’t matter if you vote for him in the general election in any case because, while the electorate is fickle, he won’t win unless something like a terrorist attack the day before the election happens.
One of the aspects that Anonymous is showing is that the anti-Trumpers or those with Trump derangement syndrome are noticeably harder on Trump than they are on Biden. That is extremely tell-tale to those on the other side. Biden brought actual organized crime and authoritarianism, what the left and anti-Trumpers harangue Trump with. Thomas and others say BLM was bad, but they are significantly critical of J6 people than the BLM and Antifa. Do we have a post I can see that criticizes Biden, the mainstream media, the left, Woke churches, more than he criticizes the right for conspiracy theories, etc.? I’m assuming his idea is that we don’t need to be critical of the worst influences, just people who support Trump really for other reasons than what Thomas even gives. He doesn’t represent Trump supporters.
They said he wouldn’t win in 2016 as well.
So your concern is if he got elected again that after 4 years he wouldn’t cede his power? Are you a staffer for Joy Reid on MSNBC? That sounds like a good line they will start spinning in the media.
If you want to talk about destroying democracy, let’s talk about all the Zuckerbucks and ballot harvesting etc. The democrats are actually destroying democracy with election interference and on and on.
I wish you well and really hope you will stop influencing people this way.
Hello Thomas,
Do you think the 2020 election was fair? I have seen you talk about how you do not think it was a “rigged election” but I have not seen you talk about things trump supporters are concerned about such as the things the “twitter files” revealed or the unprecedented way voting was handled in 2020. Maybe you have and I have forgotten about it or just didn’t see it. Doesn’t Trump have very good reasons to be upset about the way the election was handled and have good reasons to doubt its legitimacy considering the collusion between the main stream media, social media, the FBI, etc. regardless of whether or not there were actually stolen votes or voter fraud?
Also, I know you are very upset about January 6. I haven’t seen you talk about how strange it is that the security around the capital building was so terrible regardless of President Trump asking for their to be more security before January 6. Doesn’t he deserve credit for that? Why would President Trump ask for more security if he wanted his supporters to storm the capital building? I know you didn’t say Trump wanted his supporters to storm the capital building but it seems to me that you think he was happy they did and actually wanted them to. I also haven’t seen you talk about how the “qanon shaman” who, according to the media was the worst of the worst among the “insurrectionist”, told everyone to stay peaceful outside the capitol building and warned everyone that if they got violent it would be the only thing the media would talk about concerning the day. I also haven’t seen you talk about the strange footage of the violent “qanon shaman” walking around inside the capitol building with the police.
I know there are more important things to talk about than these things I mentioned but you seem to be really upset about January 6, blame trump for it, and won’t vote for him again because you are concerned he won’t cede power. I would remind you, he isn’t the president today. He did cede power.
I appreciate all you and Brandenburg write about on this blog. I have been a reader for several years and the content on here has benefited me spiritually.
Dear Bro Brandenburg,
My 2020 post explained why, in 2020, I urged Christians to vote for Trump over Biden. So I do have posts explaining why this was a good idea.
Because of the nature of those who read the blog, I do not have a lot of posts covering things that there would not be much disagreement about among blog readers. If there were a lot of pro-BLM blog readers, it would make sense to talk about that more. There aren’t, so it does not make sense to focus on that. There are also not a lot of posts on why the atonement of Christ was substitutionary, or why polytheism is false, or why we should not pray to Krishna, but that is not because I do not think that those are important things to do / not do.
You are right that I did not think Trump would win in 2016. The mainstream media successfully promoted Trump in the Republican primary because they believed he would be the weakest candidate against Clinton (which he very possibly was), but Clinton was weak enough that she was able to lose to him. Then again, while I was wrong about Trump winning in 2016, Trump didn’t think he would win in 2016 either. The mainstream media is pushing Trump again now so that he can lose big time.
We can’t have improvements in election integrity if the Democrats control the presidency, the house, the senate, governor’s mansions, the judiciary, etc. and nominating Trump will help that happen.
Also, in 2016 Trump was an unknown quantity while Hillary was a known quantity who had just been indicted a few days earlier. Trump is now a known, a very, very known quantity, one who has been dragging the Republican party to election loss after election loss.
I am fine with having a post explain why what I wrote in this post is wrong, and with challenging its argument in the comment section, and, like you indicated, I did indeed specify that even before publishing it. Thank you for allowing it to be published.
Grant, the way you are arguing would cause division in a church. Please be respectful.
Bro Bradley,
When the police are vastly outnumbered they do not always use force when it would not be easy to stop a situation without bloodshed. When the rioters greatly outnumbeded them, they sometimes did not resist but retreated, in accordance with their standard operating procedure. That would also explain why sometimes they were using verbal deescalation to get them to leave instead of just shooting everyone.
I have no idea why the weirdo with the horns was saying things and not saying other things. But he had no business being where the speaker of the house should have been, disrupting the final validation of the election. He deserved the sentence he got.
The pro and con for Trump’s arguments about the election being stolen are here:
https://faithsaves.net/donald-trump-joe-biden-2020-election/
and after comparing the best arguments pro and con I could reasonably find, I believe that the arguments that it was not stolen are much stronger than Trump’s arguments for it being stolen.
I don’t have time now to answer more of what people said above. If you want to change my mind about not voting for Trump, instead of talking about the many other political issues out there, I would appreciate it if readers who disagree could (respectfully, please) explain:
1.) What the Constitutional basis is for the Vice President having the unilateral authority to overturn elections is, or why Trump doesn’t really mean it when he keeps saying that this could have been done, or why, if the VP can do this, it is not the end of republican government.
2.) Why they believe there is no significant chance that Trump would refuse to peacefully cede power if he lost after gaining the levers of power again.
3.) Why Trump is doing things like putting video of rioters fighting the police on January 6 up in his campaign rallies, and why this is a great way to win a majority of the American electorate and get them to vote for you, rather than a way to lose in a landslide.
Thank you.
Thomas,
I’ll attempt to answer your three questions in as quick a way as possible, and that’s with thinking it doesn’t even matter to you. It won’t change anything for you. You have a responsibility to give context to the corruption of the other side and what a unique place we’re in.
1) There was a legal argument, whether valid or not, for a Vice President not to certify the votes of the electoral college. Legislation was passed in the 19th century to guide the VP’s role, but he would be challenging that legislation. There have been many electoral college problems in the history of elections, going back even to Adams and Jefferson. There was the very difficult one of 1824 with Andrew Jackson, Henry Clay, John Quincy Adams, and Henry Crawford. Then there was the election in 1876 between Rutherford B. Hayes and Samuel Tilden.
Trump’s plea was that Pence could reject fraudulently chosen electors. He believed the election was rigged. Most Republicans and even most voters believe the election was rigged even though the corrupt media continues to say that’s a lie. These are not stupid people, despite Grant and others’ insinuation of that. Maybe Pence would fail if he did what Trump wanted. You are in the very extreme to say this would undo Republican government. That is an exaggeration like I think you are exaggerating J6. No police died from it, yet many died from BLM/Antifa. This matter of degree should matter to you. The Pence rejection of electors have been a separation of powers problem, and it would have gone to the Supreme Court like the Gore-Bush election did. It probably would happen in a day or less. I think it would have counted as a strong protest. I would have liked him to have tried it. It would have been a bold move.
2) Trump did peacefully cede power. His belief that the Dems cheated the 2020 election led to his reaction. However, he did nothing. Nothing. Nothing to stop anything. He still went through the process and stepped down. Your point here seems like nothing more than a Dem talking point. I hear only their saying this, as an evidence. Meanwhile they say nothing about the Biden crime family. The election was rigged. That is obvious. Someone like Ben Shapiro thinks that Biden got more votes, but the election was rigged: Hunter Biden laptop, CIA involvement, Russia hoax, Ukraine hoax, spying on Trump campaign covered up, Govt censorship through twitter, the Zuckerbucks, courts making changes to election laws, which resulted in massive ballot harvesting. Almost all experts say that Trump would have won by a huge margin in 2020 if Covid had not hit. One or few of these would have changed the outcome. The popularity of DeSantis had a lot to do with his taking positions on Covid contrary to what you believe or believed.
3) I don’t have an argument against this as a campaign decision. Trump won the White House. You can say because it was a bad Dem candidate. Was Obama a good candidate his second term? Was Clinton either term? Was Jimmy Carter? Trump won the presidency. Many other candidates did not. You give him no credit for 2016 win. He easily defeated all the Republican candidates. Where is your criticism of them for their inadequacy? He beat them easily. He’s winning now easily. You think you know better. Right now he’s polling higher than Biden for 2024. So is DeSantis. But DeSantis will need to beat Trump. Since you know these kinds of things, you should write about how to beat Trump, instead of how Dems can beat Trump, show how that a Republican can beat Trump. What will he need to do?
TBF, our system as a whole doesn’t really have any legitimacy anywise.
As someone who has really repudiated fundamental Baptists for all the problems you’ve well written on here, I find it interesting to see this amount of passion on this subject. Politics in Christianity is one of the things I’m most turned off by among independent Baptists. I have a few questions.
Why is voting considered such a sacred duty? It’s treated as a sin not to vote when you can “affect your country for the better by voting.”
At what point can we no longer say “I love America” just like Lot should not have said “I love Sodom”?
On those lines, isn’t America just as bad as Sodom from a sin perspective? Should Abraham have encouraged Lot to focus on reforming Sodom through political action?
As small as the group of serious Christians there are left in America, can’t we leave “conservative voting” to those who don’t care about the Lord but virtue signal about believing the Bible to keep themselves from persecution while “saving face” about believing the Bible by voting for candidates who lie about caring about those conservative issues?
Why is it that Trump’s pro-sodomy is entirely overlooked by people. How in the world could we vote for a man who is pro-sodomy? I’ve seen people entirely pass over Trump’s support of Sodomy and when I point it out to independent Baptists some say “I didn’t know he was pro-Sodomy” or “well Biden is too and he supports other worse things.” Seriously, why don’t we care about this? I’ve heard it said that if someone won’t support Sodomy (at least the right for men to marry men and women to marry women) they can’t win on the national stage. Isn’t that enough to say, “Come out from among her”? If I have to vote for someone who is for the thing that God entirely destroyed two nations for, how can that be something I ought to do?
I’m not claiming moral high ground on this. I truly just don’t understand why that is something God would want me to do. Maybe I’m a weaker brother in this regard but I have no desire to support a man like that or a nation like this.
I also don’t pledge allegiance to the flag or sing God bless America for the reasons stated above. I dont see how our country is better than Sodom at this point. If it is, I don’t know what would make it so. I respect our history, but history is in the past. We are living in today.
There’s my two cents nobody asked for with a few questions for good measure.
Hi David,
Thanks for commenting. Which Republican candidate is not pro-sodomy? I wondered if any Republican candidate took a stand against it publically. I would be interested.
Good afternoon,
I don’t know of any presidential Republican candidates that did. I’m not really making an argument against Trump, but more an overall interest in politics. If we have to vote for pro-sodomy candidates, wouldn’t it be better not to vote and stand on that principle?
I personally believe that God has made sodomy to be an issue of His special vengeance against nations. Therefore, in my mind, it would be better to say, “No, I will not vote for someone who is pro-sodomy” than vote for them as the lesser of two evils. Sort of like a line in the sand. I know some people who say for voting the lesser of two evils is always acceptable and you’re really voting for the good that will be perpetuated by the better (albeit sometimes only slightly) candidate.
I’m all for voting, but I have more criteria than “he’s better than the other guy.” I’ve seen such a strong desire among independent Baptists to vote that it seems they cast principle to the side in this matter. I want to be able to say, “No, I didn’t vote for a pro-sodomy candidate because God has promised to judge any nation that commits that wickedness and I won’t support it with my vote.”
If I had a stage where I could do so, Lord-willing I would express what I would desire in a political candidate (actually I have written a blog post on it on our church website). I would even speak with any candidate about what I would like them to do to try to influence them (like John Leland and James Madison), but we are in a place where those who desire to serve the Lord fully are so outnumbered that I don’t see a man I would be able to vote for and hold my Biblical principles for qualified national leaders.
I hope that makes sense. I don’t look at someone who votes for Trump and say “How could they. They must love sodomy.” I just feel that we are to the place where it’s time to just entirely separate from politics (except maybe local) and use our influence for the Lord.
Obviously, this topic doesn’t bring out the best in believers and maybe there is a reason for that.
Bro,
I wholeheartedly side with you against sodomy for any candidate. Thanks.
Dear David,
While Republicans now–as most US voters–are pro-sodomy, at least Republicans are in favor of religious liberty on sodomy. The Democrats want to shut down hospitals that are not pro-sodomy and destroy businesses that are not pro-sodomy, while the Republicans want to leave you alone. That is a huge difference and would justify voting for a pro-sodomite “marriage” Republican. Republicans like DeSantis are also trying to stop the pro-sodomy indoctrination in the state schools. While Trump is “fighting” and alienating more and more people, many other Republicans are actually passing legislation and making things better, and winning elections. To change America to being against sodomy again there need to be more true churches all over the country, and religious liberty that the Democrats are against will hinder this.
Also, you should be in an indepedendent, separatist Baptist church because that is the kind of church Jesus Christ started. See the articles on ecclesiology on this blog or at https://faithsaves.net/ecclesiology/. Are there sinful people in those churches? Yes, and that is good for otherwise you could not join, could you?
Dear Bro Brandenburg,
You taught history for many years. Can you name anyone was making the argument that the VP of the party in power can unilaterally overturn election results at the time the electoral count act was signed, and that this was the intention of passing the electoral count act? Can you name anyone making that argument in any decade after that act was passed? Can you explain why the VP of the party in power being able to unilaterally overturn election results is consistent with a republic?
Did the Republican-controlled legislatures in the swing states that Biden won and Trump lost in 2020 send in alternate slates of electors?
If you would like Pence to have tried rejecting the electors certified by the States, would you like it if the Democrats get two Supreme Court appointments and then they lose in 2024? Should Vice President Harris reject the electors and send it to a Supreme Court controlled 5-4 by liberals, arguing that states that require voter ID should have their electors rejected? It would be a bold move, no? The Electoral Count Act makes it OK, right?
I find it hard to believe that you really have no argument against putting up ads glorifying rioters fighting the police outside the Capitol on January 6 as a winning campaign strategy. How about the 2022 election results, where despite 9% inflation, an open border, Biden’s unpopularity, etc., Republicans went backwards in the Senate and almost did not take the House? How about the fact that Trump doing this just lost him my vote, despite the fact that I have voted Republican in every election since I have been able to vote, including voting for Trump twice? Am I really the only one? Where are the voters who are going to flock to Trump’s side for defending the January 6 rioters and saying he will pardon them? Why didn’t they turn out in 2022?
Supporting Trump is not about abortion now, either. Trump is criticizing DeSantis for signing a 6 week abortion ban:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-is-wrong-on-abortion-super-majority-of-gop-primary-voters-support-six-week-limit/
Trump is to the left of DeSantis on killing helpless babies.
Brother Ross,
I pastor and independent, separatist Baptist church. (I wish our church were more separatist but it was IFB and I have some hurdles to overcome in getting us to be more Scriptural, plus I’m a sinner myself and have to fight against my own flesh). I’m local-only ecclesiology and Landmark (according to your definition). I meant the fundamental Baptists that you guys write against (anti-repentance, salesmanship, pragmatic). I see an overemphasis on politics as another problem in the IFB movement. Those are the things I meant when I said I repudiate fundamental Baptists (which I believe brother Brandenburg also no longer claims to be a fundamentalist).
I sort of addressed your thoughts on republicans in my message to brother Brandenburg. It just seems to me the whole political sphere in America isn’t worth fighting for.
Also, it seems that we should acknowledge that probably 90% of republicans are only conservative in virtue signaling and don’t actually stand against the very things they run against. They’re self-serving liars and it’s embarrassing when Christians are duped by their promises and take them on face value (I’m not saying either of you do that, btw).
In my IFB experience republicans were always treated with kid gloves. All their lies and evils were sort of glossed over. Then they were treated as good men when they weren’t.
The Bible says, “Woe to them that call good evil and evil good.” I don’t want to be guilty of that and I think many Baptist pastors who defend and praise republicans too much are. Again, that’s my two cents.
Thomas,
I get you. I get that you hate Trump. There are many anti-Trumpers out there writing. Many. They are very popular with the left. They are welcome to write in the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and comment on MSNBC. Leftists love Anti-Trump Republicans. They are welcome to sit on the Sunday new panels. They represent Republicans on PBS. In the evangelical world, they are popular at Christianity Today and other like magazines. Do you wonder why that is?
The Electoral Count Act of 1887: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Count_Act
Link for the Eastman memo, Trump’s lawyer’s legal argument for Pence.
Eastman’s Defense of His Memo at Claremont Review of Books: https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/constitutional-statesmanship/
Pence had his own lawyers, who argued against the Eastman strategy. He did not follow it. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a legal argument. This all relates not to the Constitution, but to a piece of legislation in 1887, the Electoral Count Act. I again believe you exaggerate greatly in saying that Pence or Trump could have attempted and succeeded at unconstitutionally overturning an election. It’s as conspiratorial as anything that you point out as conspiratorial. You disagree with Eastman. Fine. Saying that Trump wants to turn the U.S. from being a Republic plays into the hands of Democrats, who literally are taking away our rights to which you are mainly silent, apparently because our readers already agree with that position.
The bold move by Harris would not be different than a long list of bold moves by the Democrats, including their two impeachments of Trump, their independent counsel enacted by a leak of the FBI director for a Russian hoax investigation, their spying on Trump’s campaign by lying on a FISA application, their leaking of the Dobbs decision, etc. This is a very long list. The Democrat controlled Florida Supreme Court ruled in favor of Gore in 2000 until it was overturned by the Supreme Court of the United States. Democrat courts in swing states of Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin changed their election laws before the 2020 election against the Constitution. These were all bold moves. Should Biden not be impeached by this House of Rep because it would follow what the Democrats did to Trump and that’s not good?
Trump obviously thinks that people who vote in Republican primaries like his support of J6 protestors. He won an election in 2016. He’s leading in polls over DeSantis. We’re a long ways away, but these kinds of decisions seem to give him a bigger lead. This is all politics. No, I don’t have an argument for Trump’s strategy. The Boston Tea Party was illegal too. So was the entire American Revolution. You seem to know better than everyone, except for the other Republicans getting trounced right now. Maybe you could help them out. Why aren’t they taking your strategy and insulting Trump and his voters?
I have noticed that a majority of the Trump opponents thus far that have entered the 2024 primary race for the Republican nomination have taken an almost identical position to Trump. Pence hasn’t entered yet. Neither has DeSantis. Those who have announced are saying the same thing Trump does.
Dear Bro Thompson,
Glad to here that. Keep on serving the Lord, brother!
I agree with you that politics is a distraction for too many IFBs. At the same time, we want to be good stewards of what we have, and since we are to pray for rulers so that we can live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honesty, we should put feet to our prayers and do what we can to see that happen. When we spend too much time on the politics and not much on the godliness and honesty then we have a problem.
Dear Bro Brandenburg,
I don’t hate Trump. I would love to see him repent and believe the gospel. Now Trump would say that I hate him, but he would also say that anyone who thinks that the VP can’t overturn elections hates him, too. Could you please tell me what evidence I have given of having personal animus to Trump?
Thank you for linking to the attempt by the Trump lawyer to argue that the VP can unilaterally overturn election results. If he is right, then the electoral count act is unconstitutional. He is not right, however. But at least you linked to the argument made by his lawyer, contrary to the overwhelming majority of constitutional scholars, that the VP can do this. That is commendable.
So is it your position that the VP of the party in power does have the ability to reject election results? I am assuming it is, since you thought Pence should do this, and you would not be in favor of Pence violating the Constitution. Why shouldn’t Harris use that power in 2024, and 2028, and 2032, and every single upcoming election, if the Democrats lose it, to stay in power indefinitely?
Hi Thomas,
I’ve answered your questions. All of them. Obviously animus toward Trump I interpret from things you say overall. I would mean hate like I hate onions in my tuna sandwich, and I don’t mean you hate Trump personally, but you hate him in the context in which we are talking, like I hate the Los Angeles Lakers. You hate him as a candidate. People who love Trump don’t talk about him like you do. You talk about him the opposite of those who love Him and I can give many examples, which I don’t think you need.
I expect the Democrats to use whatever they can get away with. Obviously we’re talking about a hypothetical, because no one enacted what Trump wanted Pence to do. Pence was more of a hero to you. I was fine either way because Pence needed to believe in that kind of thing personally. I get why he didn’t believe it. He did choose to join Trump. He knew who Trump was very clearly. Again, the Democrats used the IRS under Obama to target conservative enemies. They used the FBI to target Trump even when he was in the White House. Trump didn’t think of this legal argument. He was applying it because he had a lawyer that believed it. Of course Trump liked it. I didn’t think it would work, but I thought it would at least push back against the tidal wave of Democrat authoritarianism. I don’t think you believe they are doing this in almost every public institution in the United States and in foreign policy.
By the way, Bro Brandenburg, I think I am done commenting here; if you wish to have the last word of our discussion, by all means go right ahead (and others can continue to comment as well, of course).
I would say to blog readers in general that if you read this blog and are far more excited about the (rare) political post on this blog than you are when the blog post exegetes Scripture, then perhaps it is time to reevaluate what is important to you.
Your quote,
“I would say to blog readers in general that if you read this blog and are far more excited about the (rare) political post on this blog than you are when the blog post exegetes Scripture, then perhaps it is time to reevaluate what is important to you.”
Maybe you say this because of the many responses and not everyone responding to or reading this post agrees with your take on this subject.
In my own opinion I don’t think anyone responding or for that matter just reading this particular blog post is excited at the rare political post you have posted. I would just say that not every Christian looks at this issue the way Thomas Ross does. I wish I could say that I am always edified by your post but many times you come across very arrogant and I don’t think that is a good quality to have as a servant of the Lord.
Housewife,
Thanks for dropping by. I think Thomas deserves to write what he thinks and then be challenged. Someone came on here pretty supportive. I challenged that guy and all he could do was ad hominem insults. I decided to remove all of his comments and mine for many reasons. Could I suggest a better way to address Thomas, especially for someone who decided to be anonymous? You narrowed it down to maybe one out of maybe 500 million women who are housewives. I appreciate your calling yourself a housewife though, by the way. It would be better to give specific examples of where Thomas is obviously arrogant to you, rather than make this huge smear about him as a whole. I don’t think he wants to be arrogant. Love is not puffed up. If you don’t give a specific example, then it comes across as an accusation or a name call.
Just want to say I apologize for the way I came across. I didn’t intend for it to be a smear against Bro.Ross. I’m sure I could have worded things differently. Thank you for allowing anonymous comments. I wasn’t trying to cowardly hide behind the title housewife although it may have appeared that way. I have been following this blog for probably 7 years and have enjoyed.
Brother Ross,
You are right: Born-again believers spend “too much” time on politics, and not enough on godliness and honesty – especially over the last 3-4 years. However, many that I know are sincerely trying to balance obligations to pursue holiness and obey the scriptures, but also to stand for righteousness. As one example, in Virginia there was a lot of discussion in my circles about whether we should observe the lockdowns and gatherings of 10 people or less. In response, four pastors appealed to the Virginia courts and won. The governor at the time quietly lifted the restrictions on churches.
In that light, have you heard of “the doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates?” Do you have any opinion on it? (Or Bro. Brandenburg) Does it have any application to asking Mike Pence to delay certifying the ballots for 10 days, while the issue was sent back to the states, in light of many credible allegations of fraud?
Chris
Hi Chris,
Lesser magistrates was a thinking that proceeded from the Protestant Reformers in a development in their application of scripture concerning government. It was used in the arguments about certification of the ballots. I don’t know the argument very well. It’s interesting though.
I understand, Thomas, your concern for born again Christians getting too wrapped up in politics, one of the reasons being, there is a lot of lying and deception in it.
As far as Donald Trump, you have shown that you have a lot of emotion about him as a person. No doubt, all of us born again Christians have concerns about some of the things you mention, but I’ll just say this, I believe there is a lot of lying and deception going on against him, as is the case with this woman making her claims of sexual assault. There were things about her that the judge would not allow in the trial. I saw someone bring out some nasty tweets that she has posted through the years. The jury was not allowed to see this.
I only look at these political happenings in light of desiring our children and grandchildren to lead a quiet and peaceable life. During my lifetime, we were warned that communism would seek to take over our country from within, knowing they could not invade in the normal way because of our second amendment. I feel that it is fine to find out what I can, and do what I can as a voter, not letting it be my main focus in life. When I am talking to others, I try to avoid political talk, and steer things toward God’s wonderful words, and our wonderful hope in Him. I especially avoid politics when talking with those who may be unsaved. They need Christ and His words. There is a lot going on in our country right now, so it is natural that people want to talk about it.
We are not omniscient. God is. If He wants Trump to be president to accomplish His purposes, maybe to push back some of the wicked plans of the wicked for a time, then Trump will be president. I know that the first thing he did as president was to get things going to go after the child sex traffickers. He does and says things that are offensive, and at the same time there are things he does and says that look like he has a desire to go after some of the wickedness and to protect our country from a communist takeover. He is a rough and tumble guy.
I leave it in God’s hands.
Ephesians 1:20-23
Thanks Priscilla. I know a lot of people agree with you.
Thomas, Trump didn’t lose 2020. He won. By a landslide. Likely the largest victory ever, outside of Reagan (maybe). Trump should not have conceded, just like Brazilian president Bolsonaro should not have conceded. Both were cheated (really the people of the nation were the ultimate recipients of the cheat and fraud) by massive election fraud, driven by the globalist cartel, proven innumerable times over by many. Many. It’s sad that the military didn’t step in both cases (and others like it, such as France) and physically remove the frauds from their illegitimate office and then hang them for treason, since it is the job of the military to protect the nation after all. Justice and judgment is greater than pompous “pious” sacrifice. “To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.” (Pr 21:3)
Trump also didn’t instigate or initiate J6. The demoncrats did that. The proof is absolutely overwhelming for that, but won’t see it if you continue to listen to or read fake MSM news and keep your head buried in the sand.
You have a very strange and unscriptural way of looking at things, but the logical fallacies don’t help.
Reuben
Reuben,
Like I was saying with Tim, I think you have the intellectual capabilities to be more effective at trying to persuade Thomas of your position. Maybe you’re right on everything you wrote. I tend to agree with most of it. I understand your pushing back. I’m not saying I’m great at what I’m asking you to do.
Kent,
Your right. I shouldn’t stoop to a lambasting or ad hominem attitude, becoming guilty of the very thing I condemn. It doesn’t help the argument and it’s not the peaceable and intreatable spirit of our Lord (Jam 3:17-18).
My apologies Thomas. I appreciate much of what you write and do, and should have a better attitude towards the areas we disagree.
Reuben
Thanks Reuben.
Thanks Reuben! Apology accepted.
Thanks Housewife! Apology accepted!
Thanks Housewife! Accepted!