Does Revelation 6:17 support, or undermine, a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the saints? We have considered other Rapture positions in relation to passages in the book of Revelation in other posts on this blog. Consider the context:
Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev. 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev. 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev. 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev. 6:12 Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξε τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἕκτην, καὶ ἰδού, σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ ἥλιος ἐγένετο μέλας ὡς σάκκος τρίχινος, καὶ ἡ σελήνη ἐγένετο ὡς αἷμα,
Rev. 6:13 καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἔπεσαν εἰς τὴν γῆν, ὡς συκῆ βάλλει τοὺς ὀλύνθους αὐτῆς, ὑπὸ μεγάλου ἀνέμου σειομένη.
Rev. 6:14 καὶ οὐρανὸς ἀπεχωρίσθη ὡς βιβλίον εἱλισσόμενον, καὶ πᾶν ὄρος καὶ νῆσος ἐκ τῶν τόπων αὐτῶν ἐκινήθησαν.
Rev. 6:15 καὶ οἱ βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς, καὶ οἱ μεγιστᾶνες, καὶ οἱ πλούσιοι, καὶ οἱ χιλίαρχοι, καὶ οἱ δυνατοί, καὶ πᾶς δοῦλος καὶ πᾶς ἐλεύθερος, ἔκρυψαν ἑαυτοὺς εἰς τὰ σπήλαια καὶ εἰς τὰς πέτρας τῶν ὀρέων,
Rev. 6:16 καὶ λέγουσι τοῖς ὄρεσι καὶ ταῖς πέτραις, Πέσετε ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς, καὶ κρύψατε ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου, καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου·
Rev. 6:17 ὅτι ἦλθεν ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ, καὶ τίς δύναται σταθῆναι;
Rapture / Tribulation Views and Revelation 6:17: Wrath “is come” means what?
Some opponents of the pre-Tribulation Rapture argue from Revelation 6:17 that the wrath of God has not started yet; after all, the verse says that the “great day of His wrath” is only come now at this point, and this is the sixth seal. Thus, they would say, God’s wrath does not come with the start of the Tribulation, but only here, with the sixth seal, and so a “pre-wrath” Rapture, or maybe, if this is the midpoint of the Tribulation, a “mid-Trib” Rapture here, or perhaps, if one distorts the sequence of events in the book of Revelation so that the seals, bowls, and vials are not sequential (although they actually are), even a post-Trib Rapture. What do you think?
Note that the verb translated “is come” in Revelation 6:17 is ἦλθεν, a 3rd singular 2nd aorist active indicative of ἔρχομαι, “to come” or “to go.” What would we expect for an aorist in terms of the time of the action? The most common use, at least, is that the action would have started in the past: “Generally, the aorist looks at an action as a whole and does not tell us anything about the precise nature of the action (constative)” (Basics of Biblical Greek, WIlliam Mounce, chapter 22; note that this blog post is an adjusted devotional that I prepared for my Greek students as we were studying chapter 22 on the aorist in Mounce’s grammar). A constative aorist-the most common category for the aorist–would support God’s wrath starting earlier in the chapter, before the sixth seal, namely, at the first seal at which the Tribulation began. However, there is also a rare category called a “proleptic” aorist, which could suggest that the wrath here had not yet started but was only about to begin now; maybe the aorist here is proleptic, leaving room for anti-pre-Tribulation Rapture views?
In response, we should first consider that the constative aorist, the aorist for summary past action, is much more common than a proleptic aorist. The English “whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Romans 8:30) certainly shows that an “-ed” verb in English can be used for something that is yet future, because it is so certain to God, but how often do we speak that way in English, in comparison to using the past tense to describe an event that is actually in the past? Thinking that the aorist here portrays an action that has already started before this point is the natural assumption. To assume that God has not yet started to pour out His wrath in the first five seals (even though things like ¼ of the world’s population dying have already taken place—that is like every single person in North and South America suddenly dropping dead–But is that God’s wrath? Oh no—of course not!) is an unnatural assumption.
We also need to consider who is speaking. Revelation 6:17 is not a statement that God makes; it is not a statement a holy angel makes; it is one the unregenerate earth-dwellers make, the same people who say things like “Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?” (Revelation 13:4). If we concede that wicked and unregenerate mankind now begins to understand that God’s wrath is being poured out, that does not mean that this point is when His wrath actually begins; as those who did not have all their thoughts set on God, they did not see His wrath in the famines, the plagues, the Antichrist, the wars, the death all around—but the first six seals actually already were God’s wrath, although wicked men did not see it.
Revelation 6:17: The “Come” verb in Revelation 6
Note as well an important tie-in with the same verb,erchomai, earlier in the chapter:
.
Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see
Rev. 6:1 Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξε τὸ ἀρνίον μίαν ἐκ τῶν σφραγίδων, καὶ ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζώων λέγοντος, ὡς φωνῆς βροντῆς, Ἔρχου καὶ βλέπε.
Rev. 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev. 6:3 Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξε τὴν δευτέραν σφραγῖδα, ἤκουσα τοῦ δευτέρου ζώου λέγοντος, Ἔρχου καὶ βλέπε.
Rev. 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev. 6:5 Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξε τὴν τρίτην σφραγῖδα, ἤκουσα τοῦ τρίτου ζώου λέγοντος, Ἔρχου καὶ βλέπε, καὶ εἶδον, καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος μέλας, καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ’ αὐτῷ ἔχων ζυγὸν ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ.
Rev. 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev. 6:7 Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξε τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν τετάρτην, ἤκουσα φωνὴν τοῦ τετάρτου ζώου λέγουσαν, Ἔρχου καὶ βλέπε.
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev. 6:17 ὅτι ἦλθεν ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ, καὶ τίς δύναται σταθῆναι;
As Christ breaks each of the first four seals we see the living creature or beast say, “come!” And then what happens? A judgment! The Antichrist takes power with the first seal, the rider on the white horse, conquering and to conquer; then the second seal, the wars after the short-lived peace of the Antichrist; then the world-wide famine of the third seal; then the death of 25% of the world’s population in the fourth seal. The fifth seal is obviously different, as we see there the martyred saints crying out for vengeance on the wicked, which God promises them He will enact. And then we have the sixth seal here:
In Revelation 6:17 the expression “the day … has come” is an acknowledgment by all people in the context of the heavenly and earthly disturbances of 6:12–14 and the flight to the mountains and caves in 6:15–16. However, within the literary structure of this unit—the breaking of the seven seals—the “has come” (ēlthen) in the sixth vision is an acknowledgment of the results of the summons to come (erchou), which is repeated four times at the beginning of the series. The summons “come” calls forth elements of the day of the Lord. The declaration “has come” looks back over all these elements and acknowledges what has in fact come to be.[2]
This usage also suits Old Testament Day of the Lord prophecies.
So in Revelation 6:17 even the unregenerate earth-dwellers finally recognize what has been going on since the first seal—the wrath of God poured out upon the earth, wrath which started with the first seal, which comes immediately after the pre-Tribulation Rapture.
We deserve the judgments of the Tribulation for our sins. That is how horrible they are. We deserve the eternal torment in the lake of fire described near the end of Revelation. But the Son of God, by His grace alone, took that very wrath that we deserve upon Himself, suffering and satisfying our infinite debt of sin. By being our blessed sacrificial Lamb He has eternally delivered us from the future wrath of the Lamb on those who reject His glorious sacrifice. For delivering us from the wrath to come, let us say with all the saints: “Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” (Revelation 5:12-13).
[1] William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. 3d; Accordance electronic ed. (Grand Rapids : Zondervan, 2010), 202.
[2] Craig Blaising, “A Case for the Pretribulation Rapture,” in Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation, ed. Stanley N. Gundry and Alan Hultberg, Second Edition., Zondervan Counterpoints Series (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2010), 61.
–TDR
Brother Ross,
Once again you come to a passage with strong pre-trib presuppositions. I believe that the seals, trumpets, and vials are sequential except for the 6th seal, seventh trumpet, and seventh vial, which I believe are all the coming of Christ based on the exegetical evidence. You cannot miss the similarities in those three events if you’re an honest minded person. Do the mountains and islands flee twice? Is the sky rolled back as a scroll twice? Does the kingdom of our Lord become the kingdom of His Christ before the seven vials are poured out?
Once again, the plain reading of the text is the “the great day of his wrath IS COME.” It came upon the wicked as a thief in the night, just as Jesus and Paul said it would. What precedes it? The sun and moon go dark, just as Joel said would PRECEDE the day of the Lord. You’re saying the day of the Lord precedes the sun and moon going dark in direct contradiction to the Bible. Why do you do that? Why not just believe what the Bible says?
I have a question, if we are saved by the blood of Christ from the wrath to come, why do the saints in the time of tribulation not get immediately raptured? Are they required to bear the wrath? Is Christ’s blood no longer sufficient during the tribulation? Can you prove that from the Bible? Thanks.
Dear David,
Thanks for reading the post. I am wondering if you can interact with the argument actually made in the post in relation to Revelation 6:17 before asking about other matters. I trust you have enough exegetical understanding to comprehend that capitalizing the words “IS COME,” while saying nothing at all about the use of the Greek word in its context in Revelation 6 (or even about the fact that it is wicked earth-dwellers making the statement) is totally fallacious.
It is quite unusual for the judgments to be sequential except for three of them that are not, no? Is that the obvious understanding of the text?
Furthermore, if you look at the 6th seal and the following judgments, they are not identical statements. The sixth seal says the islands were “moved” (Rev 6:14). Later judgments say more than this. Instead of just being moved, in Revelation 16:20
“every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” While I prefer my mountains not moving at all, if I am going to be on a mountain, I would rather have it move around some than have it completely flattened and gone while I am standing on it. I would rather have an island move around a bit than be on one that flees away and is no longer there where I am. These are not the same. Post-Trib cannot deal with the actual statements of the text, carefully examined in their context.
The birthpangs get closer together and get stronger in the later judgments. The seventh trumpet judgment IS the seven vials (which, by the way, requires sequence), just as the seventh seal judgment is the seven trumpet judgments (likewise showing sequence).
A careful study of the actual text in Revelation does not support your contention that the 6th seal is semi-randomly thrust out of sequence and is the same thing as the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.
I would much rather have you interact with the exegetical content in my post than ask questions about the blood of Christ allegedly not being sufficient as an argument to prove I-don’t-know-what. I may not have time to answer further, but if you do not actually interact with the actual exegetical arguments in my post, I am highly likely not to say anything else.
I rejoice that I can look for the coming of Christ to keep me from that hour (Revelation 3:10) that is purposed for the unregenerate earth-dwellres in the Rapture.
Thanks.
I will point out that each of the statements I made corresponded to parts of the post, so
I capitalized IS COME for emphasis of what the plain reading of that phrase is in similar fashion to the plain reading of “is at hand” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Your own post said it can mean that it had not come but now has come. You’ve laid out the Greek in your post. I was saying that the obvious reading of the text is that the day of the wrath had not come, then the signs in the skies happened and the world saw Christ on the throne and realized that the day of His wrath had come. This parallels with what Jesus said about His coming in Matthew 24, and the sun and moon going dark is what precedes the day of the Lord.
When you argue that that the wrath had been taking place, you are equivocating God’s wrath with “the day of God’s wrath.” Those are not the same thing. God can pour out His wrath, as He does in the vials of His wrath without it being a part of the “day of God’s wrath” or “the day of the Lord.” In fact, Revelation 16:14 says that the 6th seal will gather the whole world to “the battle of the great day of God Almighty.” See, the day of God hadn’t come yet, even though God was pouring out His vials of wrath. Are you willing, in this debate we’re having, to concede that the sun and moon going dark precede the day of the Lord, which is exactly what is stated in Joel, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6:17?
So, contextually, it was not the day of the wrath of the Lamb yet because the events that must precede that day had not taken place. Then, in the sixth seal, the sun goes dark, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from heaven, when this happens, according to Joel and Matthew and other places that quote this, the day of the Lord comes.
So, if there is a possible interpretation of the words meaning the day was not here and has just now come, then with all the Scriptural evidence that says the sun and moon must go dark before the day of the Lord’s wrath, I would say that is the proper interpretation.
I will give one piece of contextual evidence for my conclusions that the events in Revelation are somewhat sequential, while the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial coincide based on the events that take place at them which show them to correspond with the coming of Christ.
The contextual evidence is found in the seven thunders. In your sequential scheme, I assume the seven thunders would precede the seven vials and the seventh trumpet. However, if you’ll notice what the Bible says of the seventh thunder. Re 10:7 (KJV) “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” So, here we see that the seventh is when the mystery of God will finish. So we have at least two of the sevens (thunder and vial) that are clearly the end, therefore, it is not unreasonable, based upon the evidence seen in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet, to assume that they too represent also represent the end, or the coming of the Lord.
Lastly, my question about the blood of Christ corresponded to your point that Jesus bore the wrath of God so we don’t have to, which I of course agree with. However, you make that out to mean Jesus bore the wrath that will be faced in Daniel’s 70th week. So my question was, “If Jesus blood, which saves us from wrath, includes removal from the earth before Daniel’s 70th week, why would those saved in Daniel’s 70th week not also be immediately raptured? If they must face the wrath of God (Daniel’s 70th week), then Christ’s blood did not bear God’s wrath for them.” My argument is that being saved from wrath does not mean being removed before Daniel’s 70th week, in contradiction to the paragraph you wrote about it.
I do want you to know that I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I believe that the Bible, Christ, Paul, and all the apostles, teach that the rapture occurs when Christ comes back, which is at the day of the Lord, which contextually occurs after the sixth seal, not before. I hope that you can see that I am honoring the context and the clear reading of the King James Bible.
Hello Bro. Ross,
I wanted to change subjects completely, and hope that is OK.
You stated mid article “even though things like ¼ of the world’s population dying have already taken place”.
Rev. 6: 8 states “And power was given unto them over the fourth part OF THE EARTH”. I’ve always preached it as “1/4 of the population dies”, but it dawned upon me that this could just as easily mean death comes to 1/4 of the world, as in a massive section of the planet being involved in war.
Is there any original language reasons to see this as 1/4 of the world’s population, as opposed to 1/4 of the world’s geography??? I looked as far as I was able, and found no answer.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
Dear Bro Thompson,
It is really strange to have the sixth seal happen after the seventh seal. It is a very unnatural reading of the text.
The “Day of the LORD” can be used of all kinds of judgments. When the Medes and Persians destroyed Babylon that was the Day of the LORD as well.
Could you explain why a careful look at Revelation 6 and Revelation 16:14 shows that Revelation 16 is NOT the same as Revelation 6, but something worse? That is:
Furthermore, if you look at the 6th seal and the following judgments, they are not identical statements. The sixth seal says the islands were “moved” (Rev 6:14). Later judgments say more than this. Instead of just being moved, in Revelation 16:20
“every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” While I prefer my mountains not moving at all, if I am going to be on a mountain, I would rather have it move around some than have it completely flattened and gone while I am standing on it. I would rather have an island move around a bit than be on one that flees away and is no longer there where I am. These are not the same. Post-Trib cannot deal with the actual statements of the text, carefully examined in their context.
The birthpangs get closer together and get stronger in the later judgments. The seventh trumpet judgment IS the seven vials (which, by the way, requires sequence), just as the seventh seal judgment is the seven trumpet judgments (likewise showing sequence).
A careful study of the actual text in Revelation does not support your contention that the 6th seal is semi-randomly thrust out of sequence and is the same thing as the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.
Also, the Tribulation is not for the church, but for Israel. It is not a question of the sufficiency of Christ’s blood. The Tribulation is for Israel while the saints in the church age are “kept from” that hour (Revelation 3:10).
Maybe I will say more, but not right now.
Dear Bro Camp,
That’s a good question. Thankfully, since the Rapture happens before the Tribulation starts, I won’t be here to find out.
I think you can find numbers of passages where “earth” is for the people who inhabit the earth. However, if I was preaching through Revelation 6, it would be good to look at that and make sure it isn’t that something horrible happens to 1/4 of the globe’s surface area. Without looking at usage elsewhere, I would not be able to immediately eliminate that as an option, although my off-the-cuff thought is that there are texts where “earth” is used for the people.
Thanks.
“It is really strange to have the sixth seal happen after the seventh seal. It is a very unnatural reading of the text.”
Response; I am not saying for sure that the sixth seal comes before the seventh seal.
“The ‘Day of the LORD’ can be used of all kinds of judgments. When the Medes and Persians destroyed Babylon that was the Day of the LORD as well.”
Response: Are you saying, then, that there is not just one eschatological “Day of
the Lord”? In your view, then, would there be one “Day of the Lord” that begins at the Rapture, one that begins after the sixth seal, and one that takes place after the seventh vial? When I read the New Testament and the Old Testament, it seems to me that the “Day of the Lord” is one eschatological event, which commences AFTER the darkening of the sun and moon.
“Could you explain why a careful look at Revelation 6 and Revelation 16:14 shows that Revelation 16 is NOT the same as Revelation 6, but something worse?”
Response: It seems that you purposely misrepresent what the sixth seal says, because it doesn’t just say “moved.” It says they were “moved out of their place.” Whereas the seventh vial says the islands fled away and the mountains were not found. It seems to me that if a mountain is moved “out of its place” and I go looking for it, it “would not be found” because it has been moved out of its place. Also, if an island moves out of its place, it seems that could be explained as “fleeing away.” That, along with all the other exegetical evidence that the sixth seal is the return of Christ is why I believe that the sixth seal is concurrent with the seventh vial.
One more time I will reiterate. Joe 2:10-11 (KJV) The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joe 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Mt 24:29-30 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Re 6:12-17 (KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
My position is that these are all the same thing. Your position is that they are not the same thing. You say I’m not honoring the context. You say the day of the Lord comes before the sixth seal. I say it does not because of Joel and Christ. You says the sixth seal couldn’t be the coming of Christ; however, compared with Matthew 24 which says the tribes of the earth mourn when they see the Son of man coming in power and great glory, I would say that fits very well with what unfolds after the sixth seal is opened.
Also, in the sequential scheme, would you not say it is strange to have such a climactic event so early on? You said “the birthpangs get closer together and get stronger in the later judgments,” to which I agree EXCEPT that in the sixth seal the sun, moon, and stars are entirely affected, while in the fourth trumpet only one third of the sun, moon, and stars are affected. That doesn’t fit with your “strengthening of birthpangs.”
Finally, you did not answer my question about the sufficiency of Christ’s blood.
You said, “We deserve the judgments of the Tribulation for our sins. That is how horrible they are. We deserve the eternal torment in the lake of fire described near the end of Revelation. But the Son of God, by His grace alone, took that very wrath that we deserve upon Himself, suffering and satisfying our infinite debt of sin. By being our blessed sacrificial Lamb He has eternally delivered us from the future wrath of the Lamb on those who reject His glorious sacrifice.”
In that statement, you include deliverance from the Tribulation as part of the redemptive work of Christ’s blood. My question is this. There WILL be saints who are NOT Jews in the Tribulation who are saved by Christ’s blood. If the redemptive work of Christ’s blood saves from God’s wrath, which includes the Tribulation, why are they not immediately raptured upon receiving Christ’s saving grace? Must Tribulation saints bear the wrath of God that Jesus paid for with His blood?
Thanks.
Dear David,
Thanks again for the long comment. I don’t have the time to say more about this at this point, but I will simply point out:
1.) There are not a few instances in the progression of the seal/trumpet/vial judgments where it is clear that they are progressive, and where they sound superficially similar. The sixth seal, where islands are moved out of their places, is not as bad as the later judgment where there are no more islands, but there are not a few similiar situations in these judgments, and no unambiguous ones where we see the reverse and an earlier judgment is lighter than a later one.
2.) Joel 2:31 refers to the “great and terrible” day of the LORD, which is not the entire Tribulation period, but very possibly the 2nd 3.5 years, which do indeed seem to encompass the 6th seal through the rest of the trumpet and vial judgments, as they come progressively faster and faster, like birth pangs. The Day of the LORD terminology is used for the entire period from the pre-Trib Rapture all the way through the Millennial kingdom and the eternal state (as well as for a lot of other times when God is acting in mighty judgments and deliverances, such as when Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians). The “great and terrible” Day of the LORD is a narrower period.
In Revelation 6 the sun and moon, in whatever way this happens from the perspective of someone on the earth, temporarily go out, but later the “lights go back on.” It looks like in Revelation 8 with the trumpet judgment the change in the sun and moon sticks around, so that this smiting of the heavenly bodies continues for the rest of the Tribulation. It is not clear that the seal is worse than the trumpet here.
In 1 Thessalonians, Revelation 3:10, etc. church-age saints are promised that they will not be in the period of eschatological wrath. The question is not one of the intrinsic efficacy of Christ’s blood, but of the verses that make these promises. We do well to simply believe these verses instead of speculating on why God does not rapture people one by one in the Tribulation period.
If you want to make a final comment, please feel free to do that.
Thanks.
Well, I don’t suspect that I will be able to convince you of my point, though I think the case I’m making is stronger than the one you are making, but isn’t that the way it always is.
I will just ask you if you’ve ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong about the pre-trib rapture. I had never considered that there could be another option. I, like you, defended it to the best of my ability because I was convinced it had to be true. Finally, I set out to prove the pre-trib rapture from the Bible without all the books and teaching of men and found that it was not there. Now, when I have opportunity, I try to enlighten people to the fact that the pre-trib isn’t in the Bible and also requires faulty hermeneutics such as making the day of the Lord the same as Daniel’s 70th week, which it is not.
I did miss one more passage about the sun and moon going dark, which is Isaiah 13. Here, it is not referred to as “the great and terrible” day of the Lord just “the day of the Lord”, which is also not the “great tribulation” of Daniel’s 70th week. It just isn’t. The “great tribulation” is against God’s people, the Jews and the saints (I know that the Bible also teaches that God will cast Jezebel and those that fornicated with her into great tribulation, but Revelation says those who washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb came out of “great tribulation” and Luke says there will be great wrath upon “this people” [The Jews], so it is obvious that the “great tribulation” is not “the day of the Lord”); however, the “great and terrible day of the Lord” is against the wicked and is preceded by the sun and moon going dark, which coincidentally immediately precedes the coming of the Son of man in power and glory. As someone who says they interpret the Bible literally, I don’t see how you can miss this, except that your pre-trib lenses require it. I don’t say that with any kind of animosity or ridicule, but I don’t know what else it could be.
As to believing 1 Thessalonians and Revelation 3:10. First, if “the day of the Lord” isn’t Daniel’s 70th week (it’s not) but concludes it, then the wrath we are delivered from is the wrath poured out on the wicked in the day of the Lord, which is a conclusive judgment rather than the judgments of Revelation. Also, my theology does not require me to state that saints saved by the blood of Christ will face the wrath of God from which the Bible says they are saved. I believe you are the one speculating with a doctrine that makes “tribulation saints” whose salvation is different than that of “church-age saints.” Where does the Bible teach that the salvation from part of God’s wrath ends when Daniel’s 70th week begins? Can you teach that exegetically from 1 Thessalonians 5 or Revelation 3?
Second, as one who knows the Greek, I guess you know that the only other time the phrase “kept from” is used in the Bible is in John 17:15 and is the opposite of being removed from the world. So, being “kept from” the hour of temptation by no means requires removal prior to it.
I don’t expect a response to this. I’ve often said that if someone could show me the pre-trib rapture from the Bible I would be more than happy to teach that. I don’t expect that to happen because I don’t believe it is there. Your two posts have not met the burden of proof that I believe is needed to prove the pre-tribulation rapture is true. Nor have your responses to my arguments been convincing that your attempt at exegesis is better than mine. I certainly don’t claim to perfectly understand eschatology, but I think my arguments have stood up to the scrutiny you’ve placed them under.
I also want to thank you for putting up with my wordiness and length of posts and for keeping the discussion cordial throughout. I am very thankful for your strong stand on Biblical repentance and holy living. I recently had two men leave our church partly because I “poo-pooed” the Sword of the Lord and their promotion of a gospel which does not produce converts, so I know standing for the truth on these important things can bring about a form of persecution. My goal is to believe every word of the Bible and walk in God’s will, which so far in my life has proven to be a tall task for which I need more of God’s grace to accomplish. May God bless you as you serve Him and preach the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.