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Creationism & KJV: James White / Thomas Ross Debate Review 5

Should creationists, advocates of young-earth creationism, use the King James Version? Dr. Henry Morris certainly thought so. When I recently debated James White on the preservation of Scripture, Dr. White claimed that the KJV translators, had they been alive today, would have been “completely” on his side in our debate, standing for modern Bible versions based on the Nestle-Aland Textus Rejectus and opposing the Received Text and their own translation.  His claim is astonishingly inaccurate, as the new debate review videos demonstrate.  The video below, #5, examines the KJV’s “Translators to the Reader,” where evidence is provided that the KJV translators were young earth creationists–something that a very high percentage of modern Bible version translators are not, and something that positively impacts the translation of the King James Bible.

 

You can watch debate review video #5 in the embedded link above, or see it on Faithsaves.net, Rumble, or YouTube. Please subscribe to the KJB1611 YouTube and the KJBIBLE1611 Rumble channel if you would like to know when more reviews are posted.  Thank you.

 

TDR

James White / Thomas Ross Debate: KJV Translators & KJVO (4)

When I recently debated James White on the preservation of Scripture, Dr. White claimed that the KJV translators would have been “completely” on his side in the debate, were they alive today.  I have produced a number of review videos examining this claim, as part of a video series which will, Lord willing, go through the entire debate.  In video review #4 we begin to examine the “Translators to the Reader,” KJV prefatory material, and compare what the translators actually believed to what James White claimed for them.  This examination uncovers that the KJV translators believed things about the inspiration and preservation of Scripture that are consistent with the Bibliology of verbal, plenary inspiration and preservation of the KJV-only and Confessional Bibliology movements, but are not consistent with the anti-inspiration and anti-preservation views that brought us the Nestle-Aland Greek text. Believing Scripture on its own inspiration and preservation leads by good and necessary consequence to the superiority of the Textus Receptus to the modern Nestle-Aland text. The “Translators to the Reader” also favors English translational choices in passages such as John 5:39 that are supported by the context and are found in other Reformation-era Bibles but are rejected by modern English versions. Thus, the KJV translators would favor their own translational choices, also found in other Reformation-era Bibles, to translational choices found in modern English versions. The KJV translators would view their original language base and translational choices as superior to those of modern versions.

 

The weakness of James White’s arguments explain why debate reviewers generally claimed that the perfect preservationist side came out ahead in the debate.

 

You can watch debate review video #4 in the embedded link above, or see it on Faithsaves.net, YouTube or Rumble. If you like the content, please “like” the videos, and consider subscribing to the KJB1611 YouTube and the KJBIBLE1611 Rumble channel if you would like to know when more reviews are posted.  Thank you.

 

TDR

James White-Thomas Ross Debate Review #3: Epistle Dedicatory

I was thankful for the opportunity to debate James White on the preservation of Scripture.  I thought that the debate when well, as did numbers of others who stand for the preservation of Scripture.  I have recently added a number of additional debate review videos.  Dr. White claimed that the KJV translators, had they been alive today, would have been completely on his side in our debate, standing for modern Bible versions based on the Nestle-Aland Textus Rejectus and opposing the Received Text.  His claim is astonishingly inaccurate, as the new debate review videos demonstrate.  The video below, #3, examines the KJV’s Epistle Dedicatory, where, among other matters, the translators refer to the KJV as “one more exact Translation,” a more accurate version than the previous Bibles in English. Having their better translation was not a matter of indifference, but one of great “importance.” They thought their version was better, and that it was important that everyone recognize and act on that fact. So do KJV-Only advocates think today—they agree completely with what the KJV translators say in the Epistle Dedicatory on this issue.


You can watch debate review video #3 in the embedded link above, or see it on Faithsaves.net, YouTube or Rumble. Please subscribe to the KJB1611 YouTube and the KJBIBLE1611 Rumble channel if you would like to know when more reviews are posted.  Thank you.

 

TDR

God does NOT love everyone? A Hyper-Calvinist Error, part 2 of 3

Is it true that God does NOT love everyone? Hyper-Calvinism says “yes!” Scripture says “no!”  In part 1 of 3 in this series, I summarized the first portion of my recent composition God Does Not Love Everyone: A Hyper-Calvinist Error. John 3:16, Mark 10:21, and 1 John 2:2 refute the hyper-Calvinist idea that God loves only the elect. Scripture is plain that God loves the entire world-every single person.

 

If Hyper-Calvinists Were Right,

Then Christians Should Not Love Their Enemies

 

Christians should be like God. If God loves every person, then they should love all men.  If God has nothing but an everlasting hatred for the non-elect, then they should strive with all their might to purge out any love that they have for lost sinners from their bosoms and have nothing but an eternal and everlasting hatred for them, (allegedly) like God.  However, the Lord Jesus taught:

 

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48)

 

Christians must love their enemies because God loves His enemies.  When they love their wicked, unregenerate, Christ-and-Christian hating enemies, they are being like their Father in heaven. The Sermon on the Mount does not say, “Love your elect enemies and bless the elect when they curse and hate you. If the non-elect do it, though, show eternal hatred to them.” Believers must “increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13) because God loves all men, not the elect alone.

 

The Quran Agrees with Hyper-Calvinism,

but the Bible does Not

 

Hyper-Calvinists need specific passages that teach God does NOT love the majority of the world that rejects Christ and is eternally lost. It would not have been hard for God to include such statements in the Bible. After all, the Quran is filled with them. For example:

 

 

Q 2:276 Allah hath blighted usury and made almsgiving fruitful. Allah loveth not the impious and guilty.

Q 3:32 Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

Q 3:57 And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.

 

The Quran is full of such statements-when I went through the Quran from cover to cover as part of my preparation for my debate with the Muslim apologist Shabir Ally I found the seemingly constant drum-beat of Allah’s lack of love for this group and that group a sharp contrast with the teaching of God’s Word, the Bible.

 

While the idea that God does not love unbelievers is all over the Quran, the number of statements in holy Scripture such as “God does not love person X” or “God does not love people like Y” are equal in number to the statements such as “Christ did not die for person X” or “Christ did not die for group Y”–namely, zero.  Both limited atonement and the hyper-Calvinist doctrine of God’s lack of love for the vast majority of mankind are completely absent from Scripture.

 

Please read God Does Not Love Everyone: A Hyper-Calvinist Error for more information.

TDR

James R. White, The King James Only Controversy: Inaccuracies

As many blog readers are aware, God gave me the privilege of debating Dr. James R. White, author of The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2009, orig. pub. 1995) on King James Onlyism a few months ago (if you have not seen the debate, you can watch it here.).  Our specific debate topic was:

 

“The Legacy Standard Bible, as a representative of modern English translations based upon the UBS/NA text, is superior to the KJV, as a representative of TR-based Bible translations.”

James White Thomas Ross King James Bible Legacy Standard Bible debate Textus Receptus Nestle Aland

I believe that the debate went well, to the glory of the God who has perfectly preserved His Word and in answer to the prayers of many of His saints.  Since the debate, I have been working on a series of debate review videos, a few of which are now live, and many more of which should go live relatively shortly (I would have some new ones live already, but had some issues with audio quality).  I must confess that in reviewing the arguments made by Dr. White I have been impressed with their weakness.  During the debate itself I was delighted that he did not bring up anything that I was not expecting or that there were not readily available answers, but post-debate review has revealed even further weaknesses with his case.  What kind of weaknesses?  Subscribe to my Rumble or YouTube channel (or both) to find out when I discuss them there.  (I probably will comment on them here at What is Truth? as well, so you can also just keep your eyes on this blog.)

 

James White has on numbers of occasions indicated that he wrote The King James Only Controversy in merely a handful of months, and, unfortunately, the evidences for his rapid composition are most numerous.  One example that we discussed here at What is Truth? before the debate was his astonishing affirmation–backed with no written sources or any evidence of any kind–that some King James Only people think Abraham, Moses, and the Old Testament prophets all actually spoke English, not Hebrew.  While these people do appear to exist in Dr. White’s imagination, there does not appear to be any documentation of their existence in the real world.  Even if one is not King James Only, creating straw-men, inaccurate arguments is not what one would want in a treatment of the issue under discussion.

 

Another example of the many astonishing and inaccurate claims of nutty radicalism by King James Only advocates appears in Dr. White’s discussion of people who allegedly think various people outside of the original writers of Scripture were inspired.  (Biblically speaking, even the original writers were not inspired–their writings, not their persons, were authored by the Holy Spirit without any error; but saying “Peter was inspired” or “Moses was inspired,” while not accurate, is not as nuts as what James White is claiming.)  What am I talking about? Consider the following arguments James White employs against King James Onlyism:

 

Anyone who believes the TR [Textus Receptus] to be infallible must believe that Erasmus, and the other men who later edited the same text in their own editions (Stephanus and Beza), were somehow inspired … [y]et none of these men ever claimed such inspiration. (pg. 96)

We pause only long enough to note that the KJV Only advocate … has to believe that Theodore Beza … was divinely inspired” (pg. 105)

“The KJV translators were not infallible human beings” (pg. 115)

Yet a person who stops for a moment of calm reflection might ask, “Why should I believe Jerome was inspired[?] …  Do I have a good reason for believing this?” (pg. 181)

 

No citation of any King James Only advocate who believes in the inspiration of Jerome, or Erasmus, or Beza, or Stephanus, or the entire group of King James Version translators, appears.  James White does quote Edward F. Hills on page 96–specifically denying that the Textus Receptus was produced under inspiration or through a Divine miracle.  Quotations by any prominent (or obscure!) advocate of King James Onlyism, or any KJV Only school, or church, or even a kid in the third grade in a KJV Only Sunday School affirming that Jerome, Erasmus, Beza, Stephanus, or the entire group of King James Version translators were inspired does not appear.  They do not seem to exist in the real world, but only in the imaginary world that contains King James Only advocates who think that Abraham, Moses, and the prophets spoke Hebrew.

 

James White’s The King James Only Controversy, unfortunately, has many such inaccuracies and misrepresentations.  It does not fairly and accurately present the positions of the belief system it seeks to refute.  Consequently, while it may convince people who do not know anything about the King James Only movement that being KJVO is crazy, it will not be very effective convincing those who believe in the superiority of the preserved Word in the Textus Receptus and Authorized, King James Version.  Rather than being silenced by the power of James White’s critique, they are likely to be disgusted by the inaccurate straw-manning of their belief system.

 

TDR

Peter Ruckman, KJV Only Blasphemer

Peter Ruckman, the notorious King James Only advocate, is a blasphemer.

Why do I say this?  I have never read a book by Peter Ruckman from cover to cover.  I tried reading one years ago but it was too vitriolic for me; I felt defiled reading it, so I stopped.  Now recently I had the privilege of debating evangelical apologist James White on the topic of whether the King James Version and the Textus Receptus are superior to the Legacy Standard Bible and the Textus Rejectus. In James White’s King James Only Controversy he painted the moderate mainstream of KJV-Onlyism with such astonishing inaccuracy.  James White makes arguments such as (speaking about the translation Lucifer for Satan in Isaiah 14:12): “The term Lucifer, which came into the biblical tradition through the translation of Jerome’s Vulgate, has become … entrenched … [y]et a person who stops for a moment of calm reflection might ask, ‘Why should I believe Jerome was inspired to insert this term at this point? Do I have a good reason for believing this?’”[1]  Dr. White argues:  “Anyone who believes the TR to be infallible must believe that Erasmus, and the other men who later edited the same text in their own editions (Stephanus and Beza), were somehow ‘inspired.’”[2]  Of course, White provides no sources at all for any King James Only advocate who has ever claimed that Jerome, Stephanus, Beza, or Erasmus were inspired, since no such sources exist. As I pointed out in the debate, Dr. White makes bonkers claims like that KJV-only people think Abraham and Moses actually spoke English (again, of course, totally without any documentation of such people even existing).

Thus, James White’s astonishing inaccuracies made me wonder if he is even representing Peter Ruckman accurately. I have no sympathy for Peter Ruckman’s peculiar doctrines—as the godly, non-nutty, serious thinker and KJV Only advocate David Cloud has explained in his good book What About Ruckman?, Peter Ruckman is a heretic.  I am 100% opposed to Ruckman’s heretical, gospel-corrupting teaching that salvation was by works in the Old Testament and will be by works in the Millennium.  It makes me wonder if Ruckman was truly converted, or if he was an example of what was often warned about in the First Great Awakening by George Whitfield and others, namely, “The Dangers of an Unconverted Ministry.”  I am 100% opposed to Ruckman’s disgraceful lifestyle that led him to be disqualified to pastor.  I am 100% opposed to his ungodly language, to his wicked racism, to his wacky conspiracy theories, and to his unbiblical extremism on the English of the KJV.  At the same time, however opposed I am to him, as a Christian I am still duty-bound to attempt to represent his position accurately.  The way Dr. White badly misrepresented the large moderate majority of KJV-Onlyism made me wonder if James also misrepresented Dr. Ruckman.

Peter Ruckman Baptist KJV KJV Only AV 1611

As a result, I acquired a copy of Ruckman’s response to James White’s King James Only Controversy, a book called The Scholarship Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Professional Liars? (Pensacola, FL: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 2000).  The title page claims: “This book exposes the most cockeyed piece of amateur scholarship that ever came out of Howash University.”  Based on the title, it was already evident that I would be in for a quite painful and dreary time going through the book, but God is a God of truth, and nobody, not even Peter Ruckman, should be misrepresented by a Christian.  Christians must be truthful like their God, who cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

scholarship only controversy peter s ruckman professional liars james white king james only KJV KJB AV 1611

While Christians should not misrepresent anyone, I found it hard to cut through the slander and hyperbole and bloviations in Ruckman’s book as I attempted to  get to something substantial.  Ruckman can say things such as:  “Irenaeus quotes the AV one time and the NASV one time. … Eusebius (later) quotes the King James Bible four times and the NASV once” (pg. 117).  Peter Ruckman has an earned Ph. D. from Bob Jones University.  He knows that the NASV and the KJV/AV did not exist when Irenaeus and Eusebius lived.  He knows that the English language did not yet exist.  (I wonder if James White’s completely undocumented affirmation in his King James Only Controversy—which he also declined to prove any support for at all in our debate—that some KJV-only advocates believe that Abraham and Moses spoke English derives from a misunderstanding some Nestle-Aland advocate had with a Ruckmanite who followed his leader in making outlandish verbal statements, and those outlandish verbal statements became, in James White’s mind, a real group of people who actually thought that the Old Testament prophets spoke English, although he has no evidence such a group ever existed, somewhat comparable to Ruckman saying that Irenaeus and Eusebius quoted the Authorized Version and the New American Standard Version.)  Of course, at this point I am speculating on something that I should not have to speculate upon, since James White has had decades to provide real documentation of these KJV-only groups who allegedly think English was the language spoken in ancient Israel, but he has not done so.

I did discover something that made me wonder if the statement White quotes about Ruckman and advanced revelation in English were similar exaggerations. Note the following from Ruckman’s book, on the first two pages:

“Scholarship Onlyism” is much easier to de­fine than the mysterious “King James Onlyism.” For example, while “using” (a standard Alexan­drian cliche) the Authorized Version (1611), I recommend Tyndale’s version (1534), The Great Bible (1539), The Geneva Bible (1560), Valera’s Span­ish version (1596), Martin Luther’s German ver­sion (1534), and a number of others. Here at Pensa­cola Bible Institute, our students “use” (the old Alexandrian cliche) from twenty-eight to thirty- two English versions, including the RV, RSV, NRSV, ASV, NASV, Today’s English Version [TEV], New English Bible [NEB], New World Translation, [NWT], NIV, and NKJV. Our brand of “King James Onlyism” is not the kind that it is reported to be. We believe that the Authorized Version of the En­glish Protestant Reformation is the “Scriptures” in English, and as such, it is inerrant until the alleged “errors” in it have been proved “beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt” to be errors. Until such a time, we assume that it is a perfect translation. No sane person, who was not criminally minded, would take any other position. In a court of law, the “ac­cused” is “innocent until proven guilty” (i.e., O. J. Simpson) … Since not one apostate Fundamentalist (or Conservative) in one hundred and fifty years has yet been able to prove one error in the Book we hold in our hands (which happens to be written in the universal language of the end time), we assume it is the last Bible God intends to give mankind be­fore the Second Advent. God has graciously pre­served its authority and infallibility in spite of “godly, qualified, recognized scholars” in the Laod­icean period of apostasy (1900-1990), so we con­sider it to be the final authority in “all matters of faith and practice.” We go a little beyond this, and believe it to be the final authority in all matters of Scholarship. That is what “bugs the tar” (Koine, American) and “beats the fire” (Koine, American) out of the Scholarship Only advocates who are in love with their own intellects.[3]

Notice that Ruckman himself “recommends” Bibles other than the KJV, such as the Tyndale, Geneva, and Textus Receptus based foreign language Bibles.  At least in this quotation, he does not say God re-inspired the Bible in 1611, but he says that the translation should be presumed innocent until proven guilty, as is proper in a court of law.  That is a much more moderate position than James White attributes to him.

So is it possible that the extreme statements James White quotes on pg. 27 of The King James Only Controversy are hyperbole on Ruckman’s part?  (Ruckman has plenty of hyperbole—even in the quotation above, I cut out a weird statement he made about David Koresh.)  I cannot prove that James White was deliberately misrepresenting Ruckman—Ruckman’s style is too bizarre for one to easily determine what he actually means (another of many, many reasons why I cannot and do not recommend that you read any of his books).  However, from this statement we can see that if one wishes to prove that Ruckman actually believes something it is important to be very careful, as he not only makes large numbers of uncharitable and nutty attacks on others, but many hyperbolic statements.

Unfortunately, as years ago I was not able to finish a Ruckman book because it was bursting with carnality, so this time I was not able to finish Ruckman’s critique of James White’s King James Only Controversy because it was not just carnal, but blasphemous.  On page 81 Ruckman takes God’s name in vain, reprinting the common curse phrase “Oh my G—” in his book.  A search of its electronic text uncovers that Ruckman blasphemes again on page 269, 308, 312, 452 & 460.  He could do so elsewhere as well, but those statements are enough, and I am not excited about searching for and discovering blasphemy.  The Bible says: “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me. A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.” (Psalm 101:3-4).  If we were living in the Old Testament theocracy, Peter Ruckman would be stoned to death for blasphemy.  We are not in the Old Testament theocracy, but His blasphemous language is still disgusting, abominable, and wicked in the sight of the holy God.  That someone who claimed to be a Christian preacher would write such wickedness is even more disgusting.  Ruckman was a “Baptist” the way Judas or Diotrephes or Jezebel was a Baptist.  He would be subject to church discipline if he snuck in unawares and became a member of our church.

So did James White misrepresent Peter Ruckman?  White’s representation of the non-wacko large majority of KJV-onlyism was far from accurate, so I wondered if he even got Ruckman right.  From what I read of Ruckman’s book before Ruckman started to blaspheme, I thought it was possible that James White did not even get Ruckman right, although with Ruckman’s pages bursting with carnality and total weirdness I could see why getting Ruckman wrong would be easy to do.  I am unable to determine definitively one way or the other whether James White was accurate on Peter Ruckman’s position (or if Ruckman himself was even consistent in explaining himself) since I am not going to read a book by someone who breaks the Third Commandment while claiming to be a Baptist preacher.  That is disgusting to me, and ineffably more disgusting to the holy, holy, holy God.  Ruckman’s critique of James White’s book deserves to go in the trash, where its filthy language belongs.

I do not recommend James White’s King James Only Controversy because it does not base itself on God’s revealed promises of preservation and because of its many inaccuracies.  I do not recommend Peter Ruckman’s critique of James White’s King James Only Controvesy because it is not only weird and carnal, but repeatedly blasphemous.  Certainly for a new Christian, and possibly for a mature one, the recycle bin could well be the best place for both volumes.

TDR

[1] James R. White, The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2009), 180–181.

[2] James R. White, The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2009), 96.

[3]           Peter Ruckman, The Scholarship Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Professional Liars? (Pensacola, FL: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 2000), 1-2.

James White / Thomas Ross Debate Review Videos

There have been a number of debate reviews of the James White vs. Thomas Ross debate on the topic:

“The Legacy Standard Bible, as a representative of modern English translations based upon the UBS/NA text, is superior to the KJV, as a representative of TR-based Bible translations.”

James White Thomas Ross King James Bible Legacy Standard Bible debate Textus Receptus Nestle Aland

You can watch the debate itself here on the What is Truth? blog, on my website, on Rumble, or on YouTube.  If you did watch it, you can also examine some of the review videos.  I intend to produce, Lord willing, a series of videos that carefully examine the entire debate.  To this point, I have two debate review videos live (one made before the debate was live, and a second one, just produced, that begins to examine James White’s opening presentation).

Thomas Ross: Debate Review and Analysis part #1:

Pre-debate Review Video of James White & His Claims

 


Watch the debate review part #1 on Rumble

Watch the debate review part #1 on YouTube

In this initial debate review, I provide my thoughts on how the debate went and respond to James White’s claims about the debate in his Dividing Line program of February 21, 2023, c. minutes 5-18, entitled “Road Trip Dividing Line: Gay Mirage, Mass, Biblicism.”

 

Debate Review and Analysis part #2: James White & His Opening Presentation, part 1: Would the King James Version Translators have Preferred the Legacy Standard Bible and the Nestle-Aland Greek Text to the KJV and the Textus Receptus?

Watch the debate review part #2 on Rumble

Watch the debate review part #2 on YouTube

I now have twelve of these debate review videos.  You can watch them all at faithsaves.net, on YouTube, or on Rumble.  At least at this point I have not added the ten after the first two to this post to prevent the post from getting overwhelming.  Please think about subscribing to my YouTube and Rumble channels to find out when new video reviews come out, as I intend to record some more debate review videos, Lord willing.

 

James White (Apologia Church): His Own Debate Comments in the Dividing Line

If you would like to hear what James White said about the debate afterwards, watch minutes 5-18 of his February 21, 2023 Dividing Line program.

 

Jeff Riddle: Reformed Baptist and Confessional Bibliology Advocate’s Debate Review

 

Dr. Jeff Riddle has produced some helpful post-debate reviews. You can watch part 1, part 2, part 3, and part 4 on YouTube, or watch them on the embedded links below.  I appreciate what Dr. Riddle has written on what he calls Confessional Bibliology.  Dr. Riddle rightly wants to distance himself (as do most people who are happy to call themselves King James Only) from extremists like Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger while recognizing the difference between the way the original language text is inspired as to its words and translations are God’s Word as to their substance (what he calls the principle of Authoritas Divina Duplex, if you want a little Latin).  Whatever you wish to call it, I appreciate his perspective on this issue of Bibliology, although Scripture does not teach TULIP Calvinism (and it also certainly does not teach Arminianism).

Jeff Riddle Debate Review Part 1:

 

Jeff Riddle debate review part 2:

Jeff Riddle debate review part 3:

Jeff Riddle debate review part 4:

 

There is a written debate review here on What is Truth? by Dr. Kent Brandenburg: “The White-Ross Debate: Who Won?” as well as some follow-up posts by Dr. Brandenburg (follow-up part 1; part 2; part 3).

There are also some debate reviews by a gentleman named Nick Sayers, who has a website called Textus Receptus.  I know less about his doctrinal position than I do about Dr. Riddle.  Mr. Sayers belongs to a religious organization called “Revolution Church.” He made seven extremely long debate review videos (part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6, part 7).  A large percentage of what he points out is useful, although I would disagree with him at a minority of points.  Everyone should repent and believe the gospel, and then be immersed into a Baptist Church, not a Revolution church.

 

I am not aware of any of the disciples of James White making any review videos dealing in detail with the substance of the debate.  The best I could locate was a five-minute review by one of James White’s disciples named “Polite Leader.” Polite Leader completely ignored the fact that the Nestle-Aland text is a patchwork and many of the other extreme problems with the text White is defending, but I suppose one can only say so much in a video that short, and so putting in what he believed were James’ best points would be important, from his viewpoint.

 

Thanks again for your prayers for God’s truth and for me during the debate.  To Him alone be the glory for the good for His kingdom that was accomplished by it, and to me alone be the blame for what I should have done better.

 

TDR

James White / Thomas Ross Debate Transcript: Can You Help?

Can you help with a debate transcript? Some of my previous debates, such as my first one with Dan Barker of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, have been transcrbed so people can read them or reference certain arguments in them.  Having this material available was very helpful to me in my making of a review of the Barker Ross debates.

I would like to make available a transcript of my recent debate with James White on the preserved Word in the Textus Receptus and KJV versus the lost and supposedly partially restored Word in the Nestle-Aland Greek text and modern versions such as the Legacy Standard Bible (which, sadly, is neither a legacy, nor standard, nor 100% a Bible).  If someone is able to help me with this I would greatly appreciate it. I have been able to get a computer-generated audio text of the debate.  All one would need to do is listen to the debate, compare it to the audio generated by the computer, and make sure that the two are the same (and correct the computer-generated audio when it is incorrect) as well as doing some other rather simple improvements.  Then the debate will be available in a written format that can help readers and advance the cause of Biblical, faith-based, perfect preservation.  It also would be helpful to me as I seek to produce some review videos on the debate.  I am thankful for the written review of the debate here on What is Truth? as well.

I do not believe this would be an overly difficult project. If you are able to help with this project and so contribute to God’s kingdom and glory by helping spread the truth of perfect preservation, please either contact me via my website or by my church.  Thank you.

TDR

Do We Need Evidence Outside of the Bible or Do Biblical Presuppositions Count as Evidence?

This post relates to the Ross-White Debate and the Related Subject of Landmarkism

In numerous ways God established the truth and authority of His Word.  Believers rely on scripture for their faith and practice.  They trust the Word of God as evidence.  God said it, so it is true.

Scripture talks about Noah, so there is a Noah, Abraham, so there is an Abraham, and Moses, so there is a Moses.  You don’t have to find something outside of the Bible about these figures to believe what God says about them in the Bible.  It is self-evident.  Whatever scripture says is true.

The Bible teaches justification by faith.  Does evidence show that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us, forgives all our sins, or justifies us by faith?  I can’t point to the truth of this outside of the Bible.  I believe it because God’s Word says it.

Was there a tree of life?  Yes.  Did the sun stand still in Joshua?  Yes.  Was there a Samson?  Yes.  How can we answer “yes” to any of these questions without something outside of the Bible?

Authentication of Scripture

Authentication of scripture exists outside the Bible.  Men investigate the people and events recorded in it, outside of it.  Nothing men find contradicts what it says.  They can’t confirm everything, but for what they can find confirmation of the Bible outside of the Bible, it confirms it.

The Bible makes thousands of predictions.  These are most often layered predictions with many different details to the prophecies.  For the prophecies to come true, much happens that involves many different people and places.  Fulfillment of every prophecy occurred.

Extra-scriptural written materials validate people and events in scripture.  Archaeology confirms people and events in the Bible.  When comparing one part of the Bible with another, one part or more confirms another part.  Different sections confirm each other with their agreement.  Fulfilled prophecies authenticate the truth and authority of what scripture says.

Copying Scripture

Scripture so impressed its readers and adherents that they copied it more than any other document.  More hand copies exist than any other document in all of history, and by far.  Hand copies of the Bible far exceed any other book.  Many, many throughout history accepted it as true.

We can look at this world and know that it didn’t occur by accident.  What we witness in nature requires more than naturalistic explanation.  The supernatural explanation of the Bible matches what we see in the world.  The comparison of passages within the Bible attest to their explanation of the origins of the world, people, nations, nature, civilization, events, and  language.  It provides a cohesive view of the world in which we live.

The Bible is its own evidence.  By itself, it is a standard.  The writings themselves ring with authority and truth.  No one could just make them up.

Scripture Is Evidence

With everything that I have written so far, a reader of the Bible can depend on its contents to believe its doctrine.  Where there is no sure evidence outside of scripture, scripture is the evidence.  If God says holy men of God wrote the words of God under verbal, plenary inspiration, we believe that.  If He says He will preserve all of those same words and how He will do that, we believe that.  Whatever might contradict what scripture says, we hold to scripture and reject what contradicts it.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, so they didn’t.  Jesus said His Words would not pass away, so they didn’t.  Believers deny whatever contradicts what God said.  They deny modern textual critics who deny the perfect preservation of scripture.  Believers deny the disappearance of true churches outside of the state church.  They deny alterations of the creation story in Genesis 1 through 3.  True Christians accept the table of nations in Genesis 10.  Everything God says is true and every man a liar.

Scripture is the test of truth.  Jesus said, God’s Word is truth.  As an example, today so-called experts talk about climate change and the end of life on earth.  We reject those claims.  Even the evidence outside the Bible challenges their assertions, but the Bible presents a different view.

The Bible Guides the Right Interpretation of History

The Bible provides the authoritative basis for the right interpretation of history.  If a view of history contradicts the Bible, believers accept the Bible over the view.  Isaiah 40 to 48 talks about the interpretation of history.  Isaiah calls these “the former matters.”  Isaiah, because of God, could relate former matters with present and future ones.  God sees it all at all times.  He knows it all.

Since the Bible is true, it is also evidence.  This is a matter of faith.  We believe it, based on that evidence.  It guides our interpretation.  When we look back at what happened, we start with presuppositions based upon the Bible.  Our interpretation of history must conform to the Bible.

In the recent debate with James White, Thomas Ross started with scriptural presuppositions.  They are true.  God said what He would do with scripture.  We might not prove the fulfillment of these presuppositions outside of scripture.  They’re still true.

If God said He would preserve every word, God would make all of them available to every generation of believers, and He would use the church to do it, that’s what we believe.  What God said provides the authoritative basis for the right interpretation of history.  I believe what God said He would do, because what He said is true.

What Pleases God

When people come up with other points of view on preservation that reject or deny what God said, I reject those.  They may say they have evidence.  I will look at it, and I have.  Their so-called evidence is an interpretation of history.  That’s all it is.  They say this and that about Erasmus or Beza or Athanasius that all conforms to their naturalistic point of view.  I listen to it, see how it fits into a biblical view of history, and if it doesn’t, I don’t believe it.  That is what pleases God.

How I look at the history of the preservation of scripture is also how I look at the history of the preservation of the church.  It is how I look at the history of Christian doctrine.  Because I don’t believe in an apostasy of orthodox doctrine and practice, I reject that it happened.  History seems to say it did in certain instances, but how trustworthy is history before the printing press?

Example

James White uses the example of Athanasius as proof that the Comma Johanneum (important part of 1 John 5:7) did not exist at that time.  Athanasius didn’t quote it apparently.  First, we have to depend on Athanasius.  Then we have to rely on the report of Athanasius.  Did someone report him accurately?  And then we have to trust the preservation of the report of Athanasius.  Why was this report preserved and other reports not?   To the victors go the spoils.

On some doctrinal content, not necessarily this one, did the Roman Catholics control the flow of information and destroy what did not confirm its doctrine?  Someone can say it’s true, because they read something.  James White did that.  It works today for his point of view.  Did what he say fit with scriptural presuppositions?  He says it fit with Athanasius, and what scripture says, be gone.  I reject his interpretation of it because it contradicts scriptural presuppositions.  That is how believers should interpret history.

Greeks Seek After Wisdom

Paul said the Jews seek after signs.  They validated with signs.  He said, Greeks seek after wisdom.  They validated with wisdom.  For something to be true, was it accompanied by signs?  For something to be true, does wisdom confirm it?  Believers say, the foolishness of preaching, which is the substance of preaching from scripture.  That glorifies God.

When James White and others present their wisdom, who is glorified?  They are.  When we speak, they say it sounds like foolishness.  Does this sound familiar when you think about what the Apostle Paul said?

The White-Ross Debate: Who Won?

Watch the Debate

White and Ross Arguments

White’s Presentation

In mid-February, James White debated Thomas Ross about which was better, the Legacy Standard Bible (LSB) or the King James Version (KJV).  White argues with an entirely naturalistic presupposition, saying that only manuscript evidence shows the underlying text of the KJV, the Textus Receptus (TR), is worse than that of the LSB, the Nestles Aland critical text (NA).  Furthermore, he says the KJV uses archaic words and has less information for an accurate translation of certain technical words.  He also tries to demonstrate some translation errors in the KJV, not in the LSB.

Ross’s Scriptural Presuppositions

Ross argues with a scriptural presupposition.  The TR is superior to the NA based on the doctrine of preservation. The TR meets God’s promises of preservation in His Word.  Ross asserts and then proves that scripture teaches verbal plenary original language preservation by means of true churches for every generation of believers.  He also shows this identical teaching is the historical position clearly believed by the church, relying on the same passages.  The NA is absent from its confessions or published materials.  The TR only fits a scriptural and historical presupposition.

On the other hand, Ross shows that we know that the NA text was not in use for at least 1000 years.  That isn’t preservation.  Founders and proponents of the critical text, such as Wescott and Hort, deny the scriptural and historical doctrine of preservation.  Like White, they take an only naturalistic presupposition and method.  This alone is enough to say the TR/KJV is superior to the NA/LSB, because the latter does not proceed from biblical presuppositions or methods.

Naturalistic, Manuscript Evidence

Conjectural Emendations

In addition, even using naturalistic means, the sole criteria of White, Ross shows the NA is inferior to the TR.  Ross gives evidence that the editors of the NA 27th edition, the underlying text for the LSB, used over 100 “explicit conjectural emendations.”  He provides two examples of this in Acts 16:12 and 2 Peter 3:10.  This debunks the one apparent example of conjectural emendation in the TR in Revelation 16:5.

Over 100 conjectural emendations is worse than the one example of White.  Reader, do you understand the truth here?  It’s a hypocritical argument that doesn’t work.  Please do not give a blind eye to this out of sheer loyalty to White and his winning a debate.  This is the truth.  It shouldn’t matter how fast Thomas Ross said it.  Speaking fast is a red herring as an argument.

No Manuscript Evidence

White asserts no manuscript evidence for one NT reading, the one in Revelation 16:5.  He says there is light evidence for one word in Ephesians 3:9 and the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5:7.  Ross shows there is no manuscript evidence for at least 41 separate lines of text in the NA, evidenced by Swanson in his New Testament Greek Manuscripts:  Variant Readings Arranged in Horizontal Lines against Codex Vaticanus.  None of this occurs in the TR.  Based on the ratio of Matthew and Mark text to the rest of the New Testament, that would result in 191 total for the NT.

How could textual critics publish a text like described?  Even as a so-called science, textual critics don’t see their work as a science at all.  Ross quotes this from Metzger and Ehrman in their foremost book on textual criticism.  They don’t see anyone able to refer to the text as an original text.  This strongly contradicts the position of the church based on biblical presuppositions.  Ross quotes White himself in his debate with Douglas Wilson, that we will never have a certain text.

On the issue of the text alone, Ross blows away White.  The TR is by far a superior text.  When White mentions the papyri, Ross shows him the earliest, P52, a piece of the gospel of John that is identical to the TR.  After praising the papyri, White changes tunes and says that it was a very small fragment, attempting to have it both ways.  Relying on Pickering and Hoskier, Ross shows how that there are long sections of identical readings of the TR in the manuscripts.  He includes photos of these.

White Attacks on Ross

White tries to attack the KJV by bringing up one possible conjectural emendation, one for which apparently Beza says he had a manuscript.  One word in Ephesians 3:9 has limited manuscript support.  He attacks the TR reading in 1 John 5:7.  White doesn’t rely on scriptural presuppositions.  Counting manuscripts and their age, that’s what he’s got.  This is not how believers approached this issue.  White himself says that the NA wasn’t available for hundreds of years.  He speaks like this is a good thing.  It is an obvious admittance, that Ross pointed out, that God did not preserve his text.

To be honest, White should accede to the Ross argument about no manuscript evidence for NA readings in 41 places in Matthew and Mark.  Instead, he starts talking like they don’t matter for the translation.  This shows a double standard.  He attacks the TR in Revelation 16:5, one place, and excuses 41 places.  He even apologizes for the NA27, the basis of the LSB, what he’s trying to defend in the debate.  White says he doesn’t trust the editors, but he does his own textual criticism.

The Translation Issue

White spends some time on the translation issue.  Ross answered him.  The Granville Sharp rule doesn’t hurt the translation of the KJV in Titus 2:13.  The LSB is fine there.  Ross makes the point that Jude 1:4 fits the Granville Sharp in the KJV, while in the LSB, it does not.  That point received crickets from White.  Relating to the lexical issue of technical terms, Ross says that they’re still difficult to understand for identifying what those animals and minerals were.  The lexical aids can help in understanding, but they do not resolve this issue in either the KJV and LSB.

Ross and White spent time discussing the translation of the Hebrew of Yawheh or Jehovah (or LORD) in the Old Testament.  Ross referred to the pronunciation of the vowel points, a fine argument.  Ross also gave a good answer on “servant” or “slave.”  The Hebrew word is not always our modern understanding of “slave.”

Other Problems for White

White said he believed we have all the words in all of the manuscript evidence, and yet he contradicts himself in 1 Samuel 13:1, pointed out by Ross.  White doesn’t believe there is a manuscript with the wording of that verse.  I guess people don’t care about that contradiction.  He doesn’t believe in preservation, we know that from his Douglas Wilson answer, exposed by Ross in the debate.

As well, White referred to a Hebrews reference to the prophet Jeremiah.  He said the author quoted the Greek Septuagint, essentially arguing that the author of Hebrews and then Jesus in the Gospels used a corrupt text.  Modern critical text advocates use this Septuagint argument as a kind of scriptural presupposition.

Ross gave White a good answer on the Septuagint question, referring to the theology of John Owen.  Owen answered this point in his writings.  He also quoted the introduction of a standard academic text on the Septuagint by Jobes and Silva, taking the same position as Owen espoused.  This debunks the false view that Jesus and other NT authors would have quoted a terribly corrupted text and translation of the Old Testament.

Style Points?

In the end, White had to attack Thomas Ross for his style, reading too fast and having too many slides.  Come on.  Keep it to the subject at hand.  Easily, someone could attack White for style.  White broad brushes TR and King James supporters with inflammatory language all the time.  When Ross shook his hand at the end and gave him a book, White sat there looking disdainful.  White attacked his character after the debate, saying he was showing off.  He almost always name-drops and mentions his debate of Bart Ehrman and his 180 debates as automatic winning credentials.

In the comment section of the videos, people attack Ross for mentioning winning the debate.  They are debating.  If White won, his followers would say this again and again.  It’s a picky criticism.  There is criteria for a debate.  Ross negates the affirmative of White and puts him on the defensive.  That’s the definition of winning a debate.

Answering Questions

Some people have said that Ross didn’t answer White’s questions.  I ask them, which did he not answer?  They are silent.  White, attacking Ross for perfect preservation, something the debate wasn’t about, tries to catch Ross in a gotcha moment by asking about Revelation 16:5.  Ross says that he sympathizes with Beza’s having a manuscript with the word there.  That is an answer.

White asks Ross if the King James translators could have done a better job in Acts 5:30.  Ross said they were both fine, but KJV wasn’t wrong.  That is an answer too.  Like Ross, I believe the KJV is an accurate translation.  That doesn’t mean I or he wouldn’t translate it differently.

On sheer content alone, Ross crushed White in this debate.  He wins because of his scriptural presuppositions.  The Bible is the truth.  Where the Bible speaks, that is reality.  Anything that contradicts it is false.  Even on the evidence, Ross won, because based on White criteria, he showed the NA had weak to no manuscript evidence.  White tried to avoid this, just by saying that Ross misrepresented the evidence.  Ross didn’t.  White was not prepared for this argument. It’s not going to change either, because that evidence is still true.

 

AUTHORS OF THE BLOG

  • Kent Brandenburg
  • Thomas Ross

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