14 Comments

1. There seems to be little interest in (and less teaching on) the doctrine of the Holy Spirit among fundamentalist and IFB.

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2. I have followed some of your posts on the universal church (not all, so if this is already addressed elsewhere, forgive me). While I understand some of your reasoning, I'm a little lost on parts of it.

   1.Am I understanding correctly that you believe the word "church" refers only to a local assembly and not to the world wide body of believers?

   2. I had always understood that "the bride of Christ" was the church universal, that is, all believers from all time from all places. How do you define/explain "bride of Christ"?

   3. If a person from your local assembly happens to be elsewhere on a particular Sunday, is that person still considered a part of your church during that time? In other words, is church limited only to those actually assembling in the same place?

   4. When your church celebrates the Lord's table (communion), is it limited to only folks from your local assembly, or can visitors who are also believers partake? Does your definition of church exclude from the Lord's table, or is it inclusive?

   Thanks for helping me understand your position more clearly.

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3. Hi,

   Those questions may have been meant for me, but this is Thomas Ross' post, so I'm going to have him answer your questions.

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4. Dear Anonymous,

   #1: all believers worldwide are the family of God, but the word "church" means "assembly," and it is not universal or invisible. The word study "Ecclesia" by B. H. Carroll (linked to by Pastor Brandenburg a few posts ago and also at http://sites.google.com/site/thross7) explains this well.

   #2: There are different aspects of the bride metaphor. At http://sites.google.com/site/thross7 I have an article entitled "Thoughts on the Bride of Christ" that deals with this question.

   #3. A member of the assembly is still a member, but he is not assembling if he isn't there.

   #4: Bethel Baptist Church in El Sobrante practices closed communion, which is not exclusive, but includes in its communion the entire assembly, the body of Christ (1 Cor 10:16-17).

   You're welcome. I hope the brief responses and the links to more detailed further information helps.

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5. What is your scripture reference for the gifts only meant for the 1st century christian?

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6. Dear Gary,

   Ephesians 2:20 indicates that the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, and the signs of the apostles (2 Cor 12:12) ceased with the death of the apostles. I would also encourage you to read the following article:

   http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2004/Compton.pdf

   Thanks.

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7. Brother Ross,

   Are you implying that the baptism with the Holy Spirit ceased with the cessation of sign gifts such as tongues and special revelatory knowledge through prophecy?

   Do you hold to the Baptist Bride position of the Church?

   Brother Brandenburg,

   Are you a "Brider"?

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8. Hi Bro Ketchum,

   I'm pretty sure Thomas and I are on the same page on this one, but I believe that Spirit baptism was a historic event, finished in the book of Acts. I don't believe that the cessation of the sign gifts relates directly to it. The Holy Spirit came, that was authenticated by signs and wonders. That was the baptism that John the Baptist and Jesus prophesied. I'm sure he'll be defending that position in weeks to come.

   Regarding being a Baptist Brider, I don't usually mind being called that, because people normally don't know what they are saying when they call me that, and they mean nothing more than local only in my ecclesiology. However, as I understand it, I am not a Baptist brider, because I believe that "bride" is a metaphor used in the NT for more than just the church. It is used of the church, but in Revelation, when the New Jerusalem comes down like a bride, it is obvious that isn't the church, so I don't believe that the bride is the church, but a metaphor to describe the church in certain passages. I hope that is clear.

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9. Brother Thomas,

   I spent the day reading over the web site that you recommended and while it was very well laid out, I disagree with the writer's conclusion. It would take to long to discuss the differences, as the PDF was 48 pages long, but maybe we can touch on some of them in your part 2 or 3.
   In reference to your last comment to me, are you inferring that the signs and wonders were done only by or in the presence of the apostles? How do you explain 1 Cor. 12:28?

   Thank you for the time that you have put into this subject, I look forward to reading part 2.

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10. Brother Brandenburg,

    I too am local church only for this dispensation. However, do you make a distinction between the "general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23) in the "church of the firstborn" (Hebrews 12:25)as this refers to the Kingdom Age assembly? In other words, do you make a distinction between the "general assembly" in the Kingdom Age and the local assembly in the Church Age?

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11. Dear Bro Ketchum,

    The following series of posts on Spirit baptism should very fully answer your question, as should the entirety of my paper on Spirit baptism on my website in the Pneumatology section, but, briefly, baptism with the Spirit was synonymous with the sending of the Comforter (Jn 14-16), and that took place in the first century.

    I believe that the bride metaphor is employed for special closeness; Israel was the wife/bride in the OT, as the nation was God’s institution and had special closeness to Jehovah that, say, a saved Gentile outside the physical seed of Abraham and land of Israel did not have. In the NT, Scripture teaches that, on earth, each true church is Christ’s bride (2 Cor 11:2). In the eternal state, all in the New Jerusalem—all believers—have special closeness to the Triune God and thus the inhabitants of the city are called the bride/wife in the eternal state.

    Gary,

    1 Cor 12:28 teaches that various spiritual gifts existed in the first century church. It neither affirms nor denies that all of those gifts would continue for the entirety of this dispensation. Since there are no more apostles and prophets, the foundation of the church having been completely laid, it is obvious that at least some of the gifts in 1 Cor 12:28 have ceased. I do not believe that only the twelve Apostles did miracles, although I do believe that is is difficult to prove that anyone who was not either an apostle or had hands laid on him by an apostle did any miracles.

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12. Hi, you wrote, "If there is no universal, invisible church, the UCD position is absolutely impossible."

    So then is it also correct that the Historic Baptist view you have outlined is only held by those who reject a Universal Church? Or are there variations among those who hold to this theology?

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13. Yes, it would be very difficult to hold this view and hold to a universal church also.

    I would encourage you to check out "Ecclesia" at http://sites.google.com/site/thross7 for a comprehensive study of the word "church" (Gk. ekklesia) in the NT and the LXX. Thanks for commenting.

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14. Great. thanks for confirming my understanding. Blessings.

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